virtualAnarchy
Forum Newbie
Posts: 8
Reg: 04-23-12
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 04-23-12 02:13 PM - Post#2218329
350 SB Gear Drive Headache
I been building a SB 350 to put in my 66 Chevy fleet side long bed and decided to put in a quiet double roller Timing Gear Setup and I have run into 2 issues and I don't know how to proceed. First Issue is the Bronze Thrust Washer is not thick enough and it seems like it would fall down off the back of the Cam Gear and Rattle around on the cam itself. The dept of that the gear that sits on the cam is 2.60 mm and the full length of the cam sticking out is 4.60 mm. That leaves a 2 mm Gap for the 1.50 mm thrust washer to come off. Second Issue is that the Cam Button is Way way to long to fit between the gear and the timing chain cover but I never had one on my chain setup nor did I have a thrust Washer. Any help would be a great help to this engine building newbie.
14010207 - V0121TJW - 1980 350 SBC 4 Bolt Main
350 - 0.060 Over - Flat top Pistons - 400 Heads - RV Cam
               
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 technitom
"2nd Year" Silver Supporting Member
Posts: 248
Age: 44
Loc: Near Cincinnati, OH
Reg: 12-01-11
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04-23-12 02:43 PM - Post#2218338
In response to virtualAnarchy
FWIW,
a friend switched from a noisy gear drive timing to double roller, he reused the deeper timing cover from the gear drive... he had a cam button as well... you may need to purchase an aftermarket cover
Words are a lot like toothpaste... Once its out of the tube,
there's no getting it back in... |
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C10 Sleeper
Valued Contributor
Posts: 3426
Loc: Redding Ca
Reg: 03-17-09
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04-23-12 08:50 PM - Post#2218496
In response to technitom
I've never used a cam button but from what I have seen it requires the use of a hammer to adjust the cover. Some water pumps even have an extra bolt hole used to help stiffen up the area of the timing cover that is opposite of the button.
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D.Mac
Senior Member
Posts: 969
Loc: Ontario Canada
Reg: 03-22-03
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04-24-12 05:45 AM - Post#2218571
In response to virtualAnarchy
That cam should go farther into the block than that. Make sure it is not hitting the cam bore plug in the back of the block.
Dave MacDonald
Ontario, Canada
'66 Impala LT1/C950-,EFI,700R4,(sold 07/2011)
'12 Sonic LTZ, Turbo, M6
'07 Pontiac Solstice GXP
'06 Caddy CTS-V |
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models916
Frequent Contributor
Posts: 1872
Age: 62
Loc: Addison, IL
Reg: 05-28-10
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04-24-12 06:14 AM - Post#2218577
In response to D.Mac
Only need a button on roller cams and all with gear drive. The distributor gear and the slight angle of the cam lobe will pull the cam into the block on flat tappet cams. Upper chain gear would have to be machined for a washer or bearing. The upper gear should be a different material than the block and not cause wear, it should have some slots around the back surface for oil. I would only use a USA made timing set up because of those issues. I have been using SA Gear for the last 5 years without a problem.
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virtualAnarchy
Forum Newbie
Posts: 8
Reg: 04-23-12
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04-24-12 08:01 AM - Post#2218606
In response to D.Mac
The cam seems all the way in, I will double check it. I think it's just because of the RV Cam. I have already run the motor for a total of 30 mins to break in the cam I'm thinking it's ok. I Just need to figure out this washer problem now.
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virtualAnarchy
Forum Newbie
Posts: 8
Reg: 04-23-12
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04-24-12 08:05 AM - Post#2218610
In response to models916
Thanks for the reply  So I do need the thrust washer behind the top gear? or can I get away without it? or option 3 and just go and try to order a different setup?
Also I just been looking on the net for a thrust bearing the size I need I'm wondering if this will work for me if i do need it?
http://www.ebay.com/itm/COMP-SBC-SB-CHEVY -262-283-...
That bearing is 3.6068 mm thick and the approximate size from my measurements is about 3.5 mm. I'm prob off by 0.1 on my measurements. I think it would work. What do you think?
Edited by virtualAnarchy on 04-24-12 08:29 AM. Reason for edit: No reason given.
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 aghaga
"4th Year" Silver Supporting Member
Posts: 1482
Age: 58
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Reg: 07-05-08
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04-24-12 09:32 AM - Post#2218640
In response to virtualAnarchy
I agree with D.Mac...The cam should go further back. The motor may have run but the cam is probally riding on the rear cam plug. This is also placing the lifters in a different location than designed on the cam lobes. When you relocate the cam back into the block you will have to reset you timing and also reseat your lifters to the cam. On the cam button issue, different covers require different length buttons. The prefered cover will have a 3 peice pie circle look for the button you have.
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55chevy383 
Senior Member
Posts: 1278
Age: 45
Loc: Noble, Ok.
Reg: 12-08-05
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04-24-12 09:45 AM - Post#2218645
In response to aghaga
I am alomost positive that the cam is not all the way in the block like it should be. I don't remember them sticking out like that, it doesn't look right at all.
Phil
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virtualAnarchy
Forum Newbie
Posts: 8
Reg: 04-23-12
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 04-24-12 12:10 PM - Post#2218677
In response to 55chevy383
I just took the engine all apart and it seems the cam plug might be to far in. It's just right for the normal oem chain gear but with the gear drive I think I need to back it out some. Sounds like a reasonable conclusion? What do you guys think?
Btw anyone got any bright ideas on how to back the plug out? Will I damage the cam if I hit It with a brass hammer>? I'd really like not to take the whole intake back off.
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aghaga
"4th Year" Silver Supporting Member
Posts: 1482
Age: 58
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Reg: 07-05-08
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04-24-12 01:15 PM - Post#2218693
In response to virtualAnarchy
I would use a small block of hard wood and not hit the camshaft directly with a hammer. Holding pressure on the cam with the block of wood will keep the cam from bouncing as you tap with the hammer. Do not place the block of wood on top of the dowel.
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 MikeB
Senior Member
Posts: 9388
Loc: Plano, TX
Reg: 08-28-03
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04-24-12 02:06 PM - Post#2218715
In response to D.Mac
That cam should go farther into the block than that. Make sure it is not hitting the cam bore plug in the back of the block.
Bingo! Nose of cam should be just about flush with front of block. Your rear plug is tapped in too far, or there's a problem with one of the cam journals or bearings.
Is this a roller cam? If not, you don't need a thrust button.
Real Hot Rods have a Clutch!
1955 210 2dr: 327, Brodix IK180 heads, Jones cam, Muncie M20, Wilwood front brakes
1969 C-10 pickup: 350, TH350
My car pictures
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MikeB
Senior Member
Posts: 9388
Loc: Plano, TX
Reg: 08-28-03
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04-24-12 02:11 PM - Post#2218716
In response to virtualAnarchy
I just took the engine all apart and it seems the cam plug might be to far in. It's just right for the normal oem chain gear but with the gear drive I think I need to back it out some. Sounds like a reasonable conclusion? What do you guys think?.
No. The cam should always be in the same place, regardless of timing set. Flat tappet lifters' contact with cam lobes will keep the cam in the proper position when engine is running. Rear plug should not touch cam! With lifters not contacting cam lobes properly, you will probably wipe the lobes.  Not to mention potential issues caused by improper mesh with distributor gear.
Also, I would not recommend hitting cam with anything, even if you know the culprit is the rear plug.
Real Hot Rods have a Clutch!
1955 210 2dr: 327, Brodix IK180 heads, Jones cam, Muncie M20, Wilwood front brakes
1969 C-10 pickup: 350, TH350
My car pictures
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Edited by MikeB on 04-24-12 02:15 PM. Reason for edit: No reason given.
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65_Impala
Very Senior Member
Posts: 1593
Reg: 12-29-02
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04-24-12 04:02 PM - Post#2218735
In response to MikeB
Ya, the cam should be able to go in until it's at least flush to the block. If not, then the plug is driven in too deep or there is something else hanging the cam up. When installed, a bit of the cam does go into the gear to centre the gear on the cam so it does stick out a little when everything is installed.
Your gear goes on just like it's pictured with the thrust washer on the outside of the ridge on the back of the gear. The gear with washer should push back against the block without any issues which will hold the washer in place.
The button should be adjusted until it touches the cover with a certain clearance. Maybe 3 or 5 thou or something like that. You likely don't need it with a flat tappet cam but it might make you feel better with it in there.
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virtualAnarchy
Forum Newbie
Posts: 8
Reg: 04-23-12
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04-25-12 01:38 PM - Post#2219030
In response to 65_Impala
Thanks for all the help everyone  The plug was in too far. I went and talked to my boss who was a Mechanic and he showed me a block and what it is suppose to look like. The plug on my block was in the thickness of the lip on the plug itself. I took a brass hammer and a block of wood and gave it a few bashes not HARD but soft/hard and the plug slid right back with no problems. Hears hoping it wont leak now
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virtualAnarchy
Forum Newbie
Posts: 8
Reg: 04-23-12
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 04-25-12 06:00 PM - Post#2219123
In response to MikeB
Note to anyone thinking of hitting there cam with anything . . . don't do it! #7 Intake Lifter Broke in 1/2 when the cam lobe caught the bottom of it. I should of listened to Mike. Owell pull it out though the distributor hole and fix it. Thank god there was no damage to the lobe On another note the gears now fit perfectly 
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technitom
"2nd Year" Silver Supporting Member
Posts: 248
Age: 44
Loc: Near Cincinnati, OH
Reg: 12-01-11
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04-25-12 07:27 PM - Post#2219161
In response to virtualAnarchy
lucky puppy! I watched my friend's brand new cam get knocked off the workbench when he was trying to slide a box of parts onto the bench... it bounced and rolled across the floor...
completely ruined it 
Words are a lot like toothpaste... Once its out of the tube,
there's no getting it back in... |
Edited by technitom on 04-25-12 07:32 PM. Reason for edit: No reason given.
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virtualAnarchy
Forum Newbie
Posts: 8
Reg: 04-23-12
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04-25-12 07:49 PM - Post#2219166
In response to technitom
I'm going to tare it down this weekend to see if I did any damage to the cam lobes or broke any other lifters and replace the cam plug like I should of from the start.
Good thing is I get to mess around in the motor a little more. . . Do I see a full set of COMP Cams roller lifters in my future? Maybe 
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65_Impala
Very Senior Member
Posts: 1593
Reg: 12-29-02
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04-27-12 03:31 PM - Post#2219753
In response to virtualAnarchy
You'll need a new cam too if you're changing to roller lifters.
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virtualAnarchy
Forum Newbie
Posts: 8
Reg: 04-23-12
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04-30-12 04:00 PM - Post#2220793
In response to technitom
I took the engine apart and inspected it and everything seems just fine with no damage. I did almost have a heart attack when I tried to pull the cam out without removing the fuel pump. I thought a bearing popped out and wedged between the lobes until I sat down and thought about what I was doing. I'll have to listen to that one for a wile from my buddies. I'm going to pop the cam plug out today and put it in correctly then place it back together. Thanks everyone for all your help.
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C10 Sleeper
Valued Contributor
Posts: 3426
Loc: Redding Ca
Reg: 03-17-09
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04-30-12 05:31 PM - Post#2220833
In response to virtualAnarchy
You aren't the first one to do that. I almost had a freak out the last time I pulled a motor apart too. My excuse was I normally use an electric pump so that step is usually not involved.
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