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Username Post: Yoke nut torque        (Topic#276281)
DD74Chevy 
Contributor
Posts: 201
DD74Chevy
Loc: Idaho
Reg: 12-10-11
02-12-12 09:20 AM - Post#2189777    

Hey, Yall i got a question? How much torque does it take to install a new rear yoke on a 74 chevy 1/2 ton 4x4 truck? With a 10 bolt rear end? And is locktite advised when installing it if so what color blue or red? Thanks in advance
My TOYS
74 Chevy 1/2 ton 4x4. Crate 350.Edelbrock intake,cam and carb.
93 K5 Blazer 350tbi,700r4,flowmaster 40 series
98 Chevy 2500 6.5 Turbo Diesel vin F 4x4 Ext cab long box
00 Pontiac Grand am GT 3.4l


 
Vaughn 
"12th Year" Gold Supporting Member
Posts: 14646

Loc: Colorado Springs, CO
Reg: 08-08-04
02-12-12 02:39 PM - Post#2189885    
    In response to DD74Chevy

You DON'T torque the yoke nut.

The pinion has a crush sleeve in it that - if you over-torque it, will crush excessively and accelerate the gear wear (and it will whine a lot and possibly self destruct if bad enough).

What you WANT TO DO is to count the number of threads sticking out of the pinion nut (write it down) - then mark the pinion nut and shaft in relation to each other so you can tighten the nut back down to the exact spot it was before you took it off - so the crush sleeve doesn't get damaged.

For those of you that think your pinion nut is loose - DO NOT TIGHTEN IT. IT IS SUPPOSED TO BE THAT WAY. The lock thread (whether plastic or a metal crimp style) keeps it from coming undone.

Measure the depth of both of the yokes (where the shaft splines are cut into the yoke) to make sure they will fit in place of one another.

You can use locktite if you want, but I wouldn't use red - blue is good enough.

 
DD74Chevy 
Contributor
Posts: 201
DD74Chevy
Loc: Idaho
Reg: 12-10-11
02-12-12 03:50 PM - Post#2189926    
    In response to Vaughn

Have a slight problem with that..... The yoke nut is already off my truck due to me replacing the yoke i didnt count the threads i thouight it would just torque back on.... What should i do now? i dont want to over tight it or under tight it.....Dangit!!
My TOYS
74 Chevy 1/2 ton 4x4. Crate 350.Edelbrock intake,cam and carb.
93 K5 Blazer 350tbi,700r4,flowmaster 40 series
98 Chevy 2500 6.5 Turbo Diesel vin F 4x4 Ext cab long box
00 Pontiac Grand am GT 3.4l


 
technitom 
Contributor
Posts: 248
technitom
Age: 45
Loc: Near Cincinnati, OH
Reg: 12-01-11
02-12-12 06:43 PM - Post#2189999    
    In response to DD74Chevy

You may have to get a new crush sleeve and go at it that way?




I found that at http://www.performancetrucks.net/forums/gm-drivetr...

you might try here too: http://www.drivetrain.com/parts_catalog/ring_an d_p...

Words are a lot like toothpaste... Once its out of the tube,
there's no getting it back in...


 
gchemist 
Senior Chevytalk Moderator
Posts: 21623
gchemist
Loc: Austin, TX 78748
Reg: 05-09-00
02-12-12 08:00 PM - Post#2190035    
    In response to technitom

Look at the threads carefully. You may get close to the original place.
'83 Silverardo XST - ZZ4 powered
'96 GMC Jimmy LS


 
DD74Chevy 
Contributor
Posts: 201
DD74Chevy
Loc: Idaho
Reg: 12-10-11
02-13-12 10:45 AM - Post#2190248    
    In response to gchemist

I looked at the threads on it kinda hard to tell with all the gear oil on them... Dangit next time i will do my research first before i dig into it. I dont want to destroy the rear end. Was thinking about getting it tight to where the yoke isnt loose and the wheels still spins freely and just use some blue locktite to hold it in place. Problem is i do alot of mudding and etc i dont want it to fall out....Im lost at this one?
My TOYS
74 Chevy 1/2 ton 4x4. Crate 350.Edelbrock intake,cam and carb.
93 K5 Blazer 350tbi,700r4,flowmaster 40 series
98 Chevy 2500 6.5 Turbo Diesel vin F 4x4 Ext cab long box
00 Pontiac Grand am GT 3.4l


 
technitom 
Contributor
Posts: 248
technitom
Age: 45
Loc: Near Cincinnati, OH
Reg: 12-01-11
02-13-12 06:28 PM - Post#2190358    
    In response to DD74Chevy

if you look closer at that torque list it gives torque rating for used... I think that means used crush sleeve?

Words are a lot like toothpaste... Once its out of the tube,
there's no getting it back in...


 
busterrm 
Frequent Contributor
Posts: 1051
busterrm
Loc: Wichita Falls, Tx
Reg: 08-31-10
02-13-12 06:31 PM - Post#2190360    
    In response to DD74Chevy

I had a similar problem once, I was replacing a broken yoke. I went to a mechanic friend and he said that your best route is to put the yoke on and tighten it until there is no back and forth play in the bearings. If you were rebuilding the rearend it would be different, some of the guys here might agree, you would have to get a in/lbs torque wrench and set the bearing preload with new bearings.
==== BOB ====
If I can't smoke the tires I want more!

1976 Chevy Nova
2007 Chevy 1500 1/2 ton
2008 Harley Davidson XL1200 Sportster


 
IgnitionMan 
Valued Contributor
Posts: 2550

Reg: 04-15-05
02-13-12 07:48 PM - Post#2190394    
    In response to busterrm

Well, it ISN'T nut torque that sets the tension, it is the overall drag as the pinion is being rotated in the housing.

There are different specifications for new bearings/pinion vs used. consult the rear end manufacturer, and/or bearing/gear set manufacturer.

To correctly set the pinion nut, you will need a BEAM TYPE INCH POUND TORQUE WRENCH. take the nut down to no clearance in the pinion in the housing, then, use the torque wrench to turn the pinion by the nut while reading the drag on the beam.

On the crush sleeve type rear ends, as our vehicles have, tighten the nut until you get the pinion drag to the correct specification.

The beam type inch pound torque wrench I use has a ring on the scale end, so a finger can be used to rotate the wrench while reading the scale.

There are two different designs for setting the drag used by manufacturers, one uses the crush sleeve, the other, as in a lot of earlier MOPAR's, use a set distance collar and shims between the bearings, over the pinion.

The crush sleeve design uses simply, the drag on the bearings to set. Once the correct bearing drag is attained, it doesn't matter what the nut torque actually is.

The set distance shim design does use a nut torque, so, you need to get the drag AND nut torque correct on this design ONLY.

Also, to do the pinion drag measurement correctly, the ring gear and carrier MUST be removed from the differential housing, so the drag from its bearings and ring/pinion tooth angle interface don't give a false drag reading while adjusting the pinion drag.

That's the way it works, folks, and that is also how to do it right.



 
DD74Chevy 
Contributor
Posts: 201
DD74Chevy
Loc: Idaho
Reg: 12-10-11
02-14-12 12:10 AM - Post#2190450    
    In response to technitom

10-15 inch pounds is not alot of tourque or am i reading that chart correctly? Sorry for the confusion
My TOYS
74 Chevy 1/2 ton 4x4. Crate 350.Edelbrock intake,cam and carb.
93 K5 Blazer 350tbi,700r4,flowmaster 40 series
98 Chevy 2500 6.5 Turbo Diesel vin F 4x4 Ext cab long box
00 Pontiac Grand am GT 3.4l


 
DD74Chevy 
Contributor
Posts: 201
DD74Chevy
Loc: Idaho
Reg: 12-10-11
02-14-12 12:14 AM - Post#2190452    
    In response to busterrm

  • busterrm Said:
I had a similar problem once, I was replacing a broken yoke. I went to a mechanic friend and he said that your best route is to put the yoke on and tighten it until there is no back and forth play in the bearings. If you were rebuilding the rearend it would be different, some of the guys here might agree, you would have to get a in/lbs torque wrench and set the bearing preload with new bearings.



I was thinking about going this route but not sure. I talked to the guy that installed it before he is out of town. He said he just used a socket and cheater bar when he did it and made sure it still was able to spin the tires without binding.... Dont know if that was the right way or not? So if i have it to loose using locktite what will happen? Or if i have it to tight what will happen? Im unable to take it to a shop right now not going to drive it in 4x4 on dry pavement with 35 inch tires.
My TOYS
74 Chevy 1/2 ton 4x4. Crate 350.Edelbrock intake,cam and carb.
93 K5 Blazer 350tbi,700r4,flowmaster 40 series
98 Chevy 2500 6.5 Turbo Diesel vin F 4x4 Ext cab long box
00 Pontiac Grand am GT 3.4l


 
IgnitionMan 
Valued Contributor
Posts: 2550

Reg: 04-15-05
02-14-12 09:42 AM - Post#2190553    
    In response to DD74Chevy

That is DRAG TORQUE. It is measured on the torque wrench bar by the pointer on the torque wrench AS THE PINION IS BEING ROTATED BY THE TORQUE WRENCH IN A FULL, CONTINUOUS ROTATIONAL CIRCLE.

In other words, put the inch pound torque wrench on the pinion nut, with the carrier and ring gear OUT of the housing, and continuously spin the torque wrench and pinion, while reading the scale. If the drag is too low, tighten the pinion nut a small bit, and do the drag test again. When you arrive at the scale specification, stop, the pinion nut is tight enough to sustain the correct pinion bearing drag specification.

This operation is one of the reasons my inch pound torque wrench doesn't have a hand holder on its pull end, it has a ring, so a finger can be inserted in the ring, to spin the wrench all the way around in a circle, evenly.

Simple as that.

 
aghaga 
"4th Year" Silver Supporting Member
Posts: 1716

Age: 59
Loc: Altavista, Va.
Reg: 07-05-08
02-14-12 03:11 PM - Post#2190638    
    In response to IgnitionMan

This is a backward engineering thought. What if you removed the tires and brake drums....tighten the pinion nut just enough to take the slack out of the pinion bearings and then check the amount of torque needed to continuously spin the pinion. Add 10-15 in/lb to this amount of torque and tighten the pinion nut until the value is achieved. Again this is just a thought but I think it would get you in the ballpark.

 
IgnitionMan 
Valued Contributor
Posts: 2550

Reg: 04-15-05
02-14-12 05:12 PM - Post#2190687    
    In response to aghaga

"ballpark" ISN'T doing it the right way.

 
greg_moreira 
Very Senior Member
Posts: 3262

Reg: 10-06-03
02-15-12 09:50 AM - Post#2190892    
    In response to IgnitionMan

What Iman said.

Essentially the whole thing has to come apart to do it right and a new crush sleeve with new bearings and races must be used.

The inch lb torque rating is not how much you torque the nut. You could easily put 300 ft lbs into the nut to crush the sleeve, but then you measure rotational resistance with the inch lb wrench to see how much torque it takes to keep the pinion gear in motion.

20 to 26 inch lbs is often advertised for the parts. This is simply the drag on the bearings and its only pinion bearing drag which is why the rear needs taken apart. If your spinning the carrier and axles and everything it adds an unpredictable amount of drag to the whole equation.

I've heard of some people just torquing the nut to 180 ft lbs I beleive after taking it apart. This shouldnt be enough to crush the collar, but is enough to be tight.

I RTV the crap out of everything. I put black rtv on the splines of the yoke and slide it over the pinion and loctite the nut.

Dave where did you get the inch lb wrench with the wring on the end? That would be nice! I have a 0 to 60 beam type wrench made from parks tool. Works just fine but it would sure be nice to have the wring. Heck maybe I'll weld one on!

 
IgnitionMan 
Valued Contributor
Posts: 2550

Reg: 04-15-05
02-15-12 02:21 PM - Post#2190968    
    In response to greg_moreira

I'd make a ring that slipped over the beam handle, as welding onto the beam might just take the temper out of the beam, and make readings incorrect.

It's been centuries since I bought that torque wrench, don't even remember where I got it, but, it is a Craftsman, a very old, but accurate Craftsman.

 
66cayne 
Frequent Contributor
Posts: 1904

Reg: 08-06-08
02-15-12 02:44 PM - Post#2190971    
    In response to DD74Chevy

I think you are worrying needlessly. There is NO need to tear your whole rear apart for this. Just because you removed the pinion nut does not mean you changed anything in the carrier bearing preload. That is controlled by the crush sleeve. It does not 'un-crush' when you remove the pinion nut. Just put the pinion nut back on and run it down to zero tolerance. Then give it a quarter turn or so and be done with it. The nut is not going to come off and you will be fine.

 
IgnitionMan 
Valued Contributor
Posts: 2550

Reg: 04-15-05
02-15-12 05:07 PM - Post#2191034    
    In response to 66cayne

Well, here we go again, WRONG on the crush sleeve, the bearing drag is controlled by the distance between the bearing thrust surface on the pinion, and the bearing thrust area on the yoke, which is determined by the FINISH POSITION OF THE PINION NUT APPLYING DRAG TENSION TO PROPERLY POSITION BOTH PINION BEARINGS UNDER LOADING, NOT THE CRUSH SLEEVE, NOT THE NUT TORQUE.

One could set the bearing drag with no crush sleeve in place, should they desire, but, the sleeve preloads the inner races so they do not beat themselves into the outer bearing races as the ring and pinion go through their parting thrust from the pinion and ring gear angle cut.

Lets do a small example, shall we. We have a pinion with a thrust area for a bearing, and the rear bearing in place, along with a crush sleeve, NOT crushed down, and a front bearing, yoke and nut. We torque the pinion nut down to say, 200 ft/lbs, and it begins to crush the sleeve, but, we do not re4ach bearing drag spec, nor do we even reach bearing slack elimination. We torqued the nut, but, we still have a loose pinion. This is because the nut torque ISN'T what sets the bearing drag, nor is it the crush sleeve, it is getting both bearings to tension, with the correct preload of the bearings, NOT the crush sleeve. not the pinion nut.

Now that is just plain physics, which is a finite science, and no matter how anyone spins it different, that is how it really works, NOT as is stated just above this post.

Some backyard and shade tree "mechanics" might do things differently than correct, that is their choice to do things, but, not for me, I choose to do it the correct, right way. Nobody is forcing anyone else to do it right, do it as you see fit, but, there is only one correct way for this operation, exactly as I outlined it, and that is FACT.

 
66cayne 
Frequent Contributor
Posts: 1904

Reg: 08-06-08
02-15-12 06:05 PM - Post#2191049    
    In response to IgnitionMan

Okay, thanks for the good explanation. Question: is it reasonable to assume that simply removing the pinion nut to replace the yoke should not necessarily alter the bearing thrust surfaces? And if they have not been altered isn't it reasonable to assume that the pinion nut can be reapplied and secured without effecting the initial setup?

 
IgnitionMan 
Valued Contributor
Posts: 2550

Reg: 04-15-05
02-15-12 07:02 PM - Post#2191061    
    In response to 66cayne

I will ask you to answer your own questions and summations, if you will, and report back to us YOUR findings.

Take any vehicle you have to work with, and jack the rear wheels off the ground, let the parking brake off, and remove the drive shaft from the yoke.

Then, use an inch pound torque wrench to do a pinion bearing drag reading, as outlined above in one of my responses, record that drag setting.

Then, back the pinion nut off a half turn, and repeat the drag test with the inch pound torque wrench, please, record that setting.

Post BOTH results for us, if you would.

The pinion nut backed off a half turn, should still be tight enough on the pinion shaft threads to use the torque wrench to test the drag. And, even though the differential and ring gear are still in place, the difference in pinion bearing drag should be seen easily.

I await your results.

 
greg_moreira 
Very Senior Member
Posts: 3262

Reg: 10-06-03
02-15-12 09:51 PM - Post#2191133    
    In response to IgnitionMan

  • IgnitionMan Said:
I'd make a ring that slipped over the beam handle, as welding onto the beam might just take the temper out of the beam, and make readings incorrect.

It's been centuries since I bought that torque wrench, don't even remember where I got it, but, it is a Craftsman, a very old, but accurate Craftsman.



Didnt even think about that but yeah...welding with heat probably isnt the best idea with this particular type of wrench.

Far as the pinion preload...truth be told there are people who have gotten away with it(just doing their best to snug the nut back up where it was before). but would I reccomend it? no.

Its too unpredictable concerning whether or not you actually end up where you're supposed to be. Lots of people have gotten lucky doing things they shouldnt, and some people may get lucky where others do not.

for that reason I try to avoid shortcuts. Id be kicking myself if my stuff wore out way faster than expected and I knew the reason why and Id feel even worse if I reccomended it to somebody else and their stuff failed. Even if you get lucky bolting it back together, I just dont feel comfortable telling folks to risk it.

 
62chevy427 
"8th Year" Silver Supporting Member
Posts: 1683
62chevy427
Loc: laurens sc
Reg: 04-13-06
02-16-12 08:25 PM - Post#2191472    
    In response to DD74Chevy

in a case like yours,i tighten the yoke nut slowly while wiggling the yoke to check for play in the bearings. when all play is gone i go just a little more,no more than 1/2 or 1 flat and leave it. i use green locktite on the nut. as was mentioned,rolling torque is the criteria,not nut torque. if,after tightening the nut,the rolling torque seems too much,you can back off some. mark the nut first.
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IgnitionMan 
Valued Contributor
Posts: 2550

Reg: 04-15-05
02-17-12 10:13 AM - Post#2191639    
    In response to 62chevy427

I give up, seems people just don't care about doing things the right way any more. The reasons we have specifications and proper procedures is to get the job done right, the first time, and not shade tree a part into oblivion from short cuts and/or "new tech" fixes that really aren't fixes at all.

Maybe I am just too critical at those who use this new tech to do things, I am old school, 40 plus years of being a factory tech, design engineer, and I find that I fix far more disasters caused by those new tech short cuts than I like to see. "New tech" created disasters are getting really, really old, in my book.

 
MikeB 
Senior Member
Posts: 9472
MikeB
Loc: Plano, TX
Reg: 08-28-03
02-17-12 11:33 AM - Post#2191664    
    In response to IgnitionMan

I-man -- Let's say it takes an impact wrench and 350 ft/lbs to crush a new sleeve to the point where rotational drag is 20 in/lbs.

Then, several years later, you have to remove the yoke to replace the seal. You're saying that we must check rotational drag BEFORE we remove the nut? And then on re-assembly apply enough torque to the pinion nut to achieve that same amount of drag?

I thought the sleeve set the distance between bearings, and once crushed, that distance would set rotational drag to the same value, no matter whether 100, 120, or 130 lb/ft torque was applied to the nut later on. What am I missing? I would have guessed the nut torque would affect rotational drag ONLY if the sleeve was too short (or the bearings & races were worn).
Real Hot Rods have a Clutch!

1955 210 2dr: 327, Brodix IK180 heads, Jones cam, M20, Wilwood front brakes

1982 C-10 SWB pickup, 250 six, 3-speed

My car pictures



Edited by MikeB on 02-17-12 11:37 AM. Reason for edit: No reason given.

 
awsum55 
Senior Member
Posts: 8838
awsum55
Age: 61
Loc: O.P. Kansas
Reg: 09-27-01
02-17-12 02:49 PM - Post#2191710    
    In response to MikeB

I thought the same thing, but when I broke a "U" joint at the track, the driveshaft beat up my yoke so I had to replace it.

I got a new yoke and nut and cranked it down, knowing that I couldn't possibly do damage with a 8" ratchet. A few months later I was getting a funny noise I never heard before, so I pulled the rear and brought it back to the guy that built it.

He told me the nut was too tight and if I had kept running it like that, it would have toasted the bearing. So, I assume I did the damage with my small ratchet, or he screwed it up originally and it was just a coincidence that I heard the noise a couple of weeks after I messed with it.
Five things that you cannot recover in life:

* The Stone after it's thrown
* The Word after it's said
* An Occasion after it's missed
* The Time after it's gone
* A person after they die


 
IgnitionMan 
Valued Contributor
Posts: 2550

Reg: 04-15-05
02-17-12 04:59 PM - Post#2191764    
    In response to MikeB

NOPE, bearings take a set, wear, and that changes drag torque. So, ONCE A YEAR, the diff should be pulled out, the drag torque readjusted and the whole mess put back together with new 90W-140 weight gear lube.

And, if you are using a=n impact wrench to tighten the pinion nut, that, too is NOT the right way to do it. Using a holder fixture in the U joint bolt holes in the yoke IS. along with a long bar/socket, by hand.

As I said, there is doing it the right way, and then, there is shade tree/back yard.

 
MikeB 
Senior Member
Posts: 9472
MikeB
Loc: Plano, TX
Reg: 08-28-03
02-18-12 04:39 PM - Post#2192137    
    In response to IgnitionMan

  • IgnitionMan Said:

And, if you are using a=n impact wrench to tighten the pinion nut, that, too is NOT the right way to do it. Using a holder fixture in the U joint bolt holes in the yoke IS. along with a long bar/socket, by hand.



With an emphasis on "long"! No way will my longest breaker bar work without assistance from a water pipe.

I did buy a yoke holder when I did my last rear end. Don't know how I got along without it. Well, OK, I had been using a 24" pipe wrench.

Regarding pulling out the axles and resetting preload ONCE A YEAR, are you serious? Maybe on a race car, but on a street car? My 1969 pickup's rear end lasted 40+ years. When I took it apart to install a posi it still had .010" backlash and the gears looked almost new. I can assure you it never saw more than a gear lube change in those 40 years.
Real Hot Rods have a Clutch!

1955 210 2dr: 327, Brodix IK180 heads, Jones cam, M20, Wilwood front brakes

1982 C-10 SWB pickup, 250 six, 3-speed

My car pictures



Edited by MikeB on 02-18-12 04:49 PM. Reason for edit: No reason given.

 
IgnitionMan 
Valued Contributor
Posts: 2550

Reg: 04-15-05
02-18-12 07:30 PM - Post#2192224    
    In response to MikeB

The once a year maintenance on my vehicles includes rear end services as I outlined. I have never lost a pinion or carrier bearing, nor ring/pinion, differential, wheel bearing, they just keep spinning along.

I learned differentials form Tom at Tom's Differentials in South Gate, Calif., and he was a real pain to learn from, as he really gave you a ration if you did not do it right.

My pinion holder tool and torque bar are both 5 feet long, that is what it takes to get the crush sleeve to collapse. Tom had two guys that worked only on pinion assembly and setting, they used tools that were 6 feet long.

One of the things I used to do is never add a drain plug to a differential carrier housing. This way, to change the oil, I had to pull the inspection plate, or carrier out of the housing, forcing me to inspect the parts up close and personal. Tom taught me well, go the extra distance, check everything.

 
DD74Chevy 
Contributor
Posts: 201
DD74Chevy
Loc: Idaho
Reg: 12-10-11
02-19-12 03:59 PM - Post#2192565    
    In response to DD74Chevy

Thanks everyone for your responces you all are a great help. Very good info. I got the yoke nut back on today took it into the shop to get it done the correct way. Found out as to why my seal blew and leaked gear oil every where. The breather tube was plugged up with mud and grit!! I cleaned it out while the guy was installing the new seal. I had him put some locktite on it for good measure. Again thanks everyone for all your help. If i could i would give ya all some beer and drink with ya.:toast: But i cant i know it sucks!! Cant say thanks enough!!
My TOYS
74 Chevy 1/2 ton 4x4. Crate 350.Edelbrock intake,cam and carb.
93 K5 Blazer 350tbi,700r4,flowmaster 40 series
98 Chevy 2500 6.5 Turbo Diesel vin F 4x4 Ext cab long box
00 Pontiac Grand am GT 3.4l


 
newbie 
Forum Newbie
Posts: 1

Reg: 05-05-12
05-05-12 10:09 AM - Post#2222720    
    In response to DD74Chevy

Having problems with reaching torque needed to crush the crush sleeve. When we did reach it, we took the nut back off, then the pinion had in-out play toward the ring gear- which is actually out. Could we have overcrushed? Or is play ok?

Edited by newbie on 05-05-12 10:10 AM. Reason for edit: No reason given.

 
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