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Username Post: 153 tooth flywheel vs 168        (Topic#252712)
OldDad 
Senior Member
Posts: 1921
OldDad
Age: 70
Loc: The Great NorthWest
Reg: 06-06-04
11-14-10 09:38 PM - Post#2004405    

Any advantages to using one or the other? I've got a mild 327 tripower with a wide ratio Muncie and a 3:08 axle. All opinions welcome.

The S.O.B. from the factory...
71 1/2 ton, 64 Chevelle SS, 57 2dr Hardtop, 57 2dr Sedan, 57 Corvette, 52 2dr Hardtop, 52 2dr Sedan, and now a 49 Plymouth Coupe


 
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SAM_57 
Very Senior Member
Posts: 2945
SAM_57
Loc: Hampton, VA USA
Reg: 06-20-01
11-15-10 04:47 AM - Post#2004473    
    In response to OldDad

You first need to figure out which bellhousing you will be using. A factory style, with bellhousing mounted starter, will require the larger diameter flywheel. If using the block mounted starter, then the smaller flywheel will need to be used.

The clutch diameter is also tied to the flywheel diameter.
S.Pollard 57 Belair sport coupe 69 C/10 stepside (wife's) 84 Monte Carlo SS


 
Rick_L 
Honored Member
Posts: 25769

Loc: Katy, Tx, USA
Reg: 07-06-00
11-15-10 05:54 AM - Post#2004490    
    In response to SAM_57

Block mounted starters can be used with the 168 tooth flywheel. They are the ones with a diagonal mounting pattern.

The 153 tooth starter has a straight across mounting pattern.

You can use either one, the starter/bellhousing just has to match. Most heavy duty setups use the big flywheel.

 
DZAUTO 
Senior Member
Posts: 7535

Loc: Mustang, OK, USA
Reg: 12-25-99
11-15-10 06:36 AM - Post#2004502    
    In response to OldDad

With the 153 teeth flywheel, you can ONLY USE a 10 1/2in clutch.
ALL V8 flywheels up through 62 were ONLY the 168 teeth version, BUT, they had a bolt pattern for the smaller 10 1/2in clutch. A later model 168 teeth flywheel will have the bolt pattern for the larger, 11in clutch, which I would STRONGLY recommend if you are going to use a 3.08 rear gear. The reason is because slightly more torque will be required to get the 3.08 turning, thus, just a little additional feathering of the clutch will be necessary from a dead stop and the larger 11in clutch will simply be a better choice because of the greater contact surface of an 11in clutch vs a 10 1/2in clutch.
Now, for me personally, I run a 168 teeth flywheel/11in clutch in EVERYTHING I own.
My philosophy regarding a clutch is the same as my philosophy regarding cubic inches. Too much is just right!
Tom Parsons


 
OldDad 
Senior Member
Posts: 1921
OldDad
Age: 70
Loc: The Great NorthWest
Reg: 06-06-04
11-15-10 11:06 AM - Post#2004626    
    In response to DZAUTO

Thanks to all for the answers. Great information.
The S.O.B. from the factory...
71 1/2 ton, 64 Chevelle SS, 57 2dr Hardtop, 57 2dr Sedan, 57 Corvette, 52 2dr Hardtop, 52 2dr Sedan, and now a 49 Plymouth Coupe


 
Highlander1 
"4th Year" Silver Supporting Member
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Loc: SE North Carolina
Reg: 08-19-04
11-17-10 07:32 PM - Post#2005797    
    In response to DZAUTO

  • DZAUTO Said:
ALL V8 flywheels up through 62 were ONLY the 168 teeth version, Now, for me personally, I run a 168 teeth flywheel/11in clutch in EVERYTHING I own.



Can the 168 teeth flywheel/11in clutch combination be used in the stock 55-57 pass car bellhousing? Thanks, Don

 
Rick_L 
Honored Member
Posts: 25769

Loc: Katy, Tx, USA
Reg: 07-06-00
11-17-10 08:44 PM - Post#2005836    
    In response to Highlander1

Yes it sure can. In fact it should be the #1 choice. #1a would be a similar setup with a 10.4" clutch.

 
awsum55 
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awsum55
Age: 62
Loc: O.P. Kansas
Reg: 09-27-01
11-17-10 09:03 PM - Post#2005842    
    In response to Highlander1

I'm pretty sure that is the set up I had. I changed over to a scattershield because I planned on taking it to the track.

The only thing I think I had to do was cut away part of the bellhousing so the starter would fit/work right.
Five things that you cannot recover in life:

* The Stone after it's thrown
* The Word after it's said
* An Occasion after it's missed
* The Time after it's gone
* A person after they die


 
DZAUTO 
Senior Member
Posts: 7535

Loc: Mustang, OK, USA
Reg: 12-25-99
11-18-10 10:23 PM - Post#2006280    
    In response to Highlander1

  • Highlander1 Said:
  • DZAUTO Said:
ALL V8 flywheels up through 62 were ONLY the 168 teeth version, Now, for me personally, I run a 168 teeth flywheel/11in clutch in EVERYTHING I own.



Can the 168 teeth flywheel/11in clutch combination be used in the stock 55-57 pass car bellhousing? Thanks, Don



Ummmmmmmmmmm, sorry, I thought I made that clear. Yes, that's what I have in my cars that have the 55-62 style open bottom bell housings (BOTH iron and alum versions).
Up through 1985, ANY 168 teeth flywheel with the bolt pattern for an 11in clutch will retrofit all the way back to a 1955 V8.
Now, just as sure as God make little green apples, someone is going to jump in here with a comment regarding EXternal balanced flywheels such as those used on the SB400 and the 454BB. So, I better clarify that before someone gets all bent out of shape.
The NEUTRAL balance 168 teeth and the EXternal balance 168 teeth flywheels are 100% the same and are TOTALLY interchangeable with each other and will bolt onto the back of ANY 55-85 V8 engine and ANY 63-later inline Chevy 6cyl. The ONLY difference between neutral and EXternal balance flywheels is that added weight on the EXternal balance flywheels which is needed for a SB400 and a 454 (YES, there is a difference in the added weight between a SB400 and a 454 flywheel). See picture below.


Furthermore, the ONLY size flywheel used on the SB400 and 454 was the larger 168 teeth version (because of that needed extra weight on one side for balance purposes). They never got the smaller 153 teeth flywheel.
As an example of where this is important, is let's say you have a 55 Chevy with a 4sp and you want to drop in a SB400 or a 454. You can literally unbolt the stock 265 from the 55 (or later) bell housing, and drop in the SB400 or 454, with the large 168 teeth flywheel/11in clutch, bolt it up to the 55 bell housing and drive it away. Ya, ya, ya, ya, ya I know, you gotta do a little massaging to a 55-57 Chevy to drop in a BB if it is to fit in there with the bell housing/tranny in the stock position.
Tom Parsons


 
MikeB 
Senior Member
Posts: 9479
MikeB
Loc: Plano, TX
Reg: 08-28-03
11-19-10 05:44 AM - Post#2006355    
    In response to OldDad

When I bought my Muncie, the seller gave me a small one-piece aluminum bellhousing (1964 date code) and a GM 153-tooth cast iron flywheel. I spent $45 to have the flywheel ground and a whopping $90-something on a Pioneer stock replacement clutch kit. Behind a mild 350, the setup worked like a charm for 3 years. In fact, when I pulled the engine, the clutch disc looked almost new.

When I dropped in my new, higher-revving 327, I didn't have the money for the larger safety bellhousing I wanted, so I bought an inexpensive 153-tooth steel flywheel and a 10.5" Zoom street/strip clutch. After 3 years of moderately-aggressive street driving the clutch still works great. More than likely, the old stock clutch would still be working well, too.

Some day I may go to a Lakewood bellhousing. When/if I do, I might make the jump to a larger flywheel and clutch, but I expect the current setup will serve me well for years.

If you're starting from scratch, go with the 168/11 setup. If you already have some 153/10.5 parts, they will work well with your mild 327.
Real Hot Rods have a Clutch!

1955 210 2dr: 327, Brodix IK180 heads, Jones cam, M20, Wilwood front brakes

1982 C-10 SWB pickup, 250 six, 3-speed

My car pictures



Edited by MikeB on 11-19-10 05:46 AM. Reason for edit: No reason given.

 
DZAUTO 
Senior Member
Posts: 7535

Loc: Mustang, OK, USA
Reg: 12-25-99
11-19-10 09:06 AM - Post#2006438    
    In response to MikeB

YEP!
Tom Parsons


 
Highlander1 
"4th Year" Silver Supporting Member
Posts: 1415

Loc: SE North Carolina
Reg: 08-19-04
11-19-10 11:10 PM - Post#2006744    
    In response to DZAUTO

Thanks Tom. Just wanted to be sure I understood correctly. Mike has raised a question regarding clutch safety. Since I plan/want to use the stock bell housing I also plan to use an SFI-1.1 certified flywheel and clutch. Is this combination considered an acceptable alternative to say, a Lakewood explosion proof bell housing? Also, it seems to me that many years ago there were external shields on the market. Lately have only seen them for autos. Regards, Don

 
Rick_L 
Honored Member
Posts: 25769

Loc: Katy, Tx, USA
Reg: 07-06-00
11-20-10 07:06 AM - Post#2006823    
    In response to Highlander1

If you want to be safe you use both.

 
tmsnyder 
Senior Member
Posts: 998
tmsnyder
Loc: Buffalo, NY
Reg: 06-13-06
12-05-11 07:34 AM - Post#2165229    
    In response to DZAUTO

Thanks for the good info Tom. I wish I'd looked up this thread before ordering the wrong flywheel.

So for a '55 stock bell housing mounted starter, can you tell me what would be a good fictitious vehicle to look up at the auto store's computer in order to end up with a 168 tooth, 11 inch clutch?
'56 Chevy 4dr 210 327ci
'97 GMC K1500 Suburban 6.5TD


 
GaryC 
Very Senior Member
Posts: 2677
GaryC
Loc: Pittsburgh, PA. U.S.A
Reg: 02-28-03
12-05-11 08:23 AM - Post#2165238    
    In response to tmsnyder

Some additional info:

I run a stock Borg & Beck style 12" clutch setup on my 168 tooth flywheel. It fits too, not that many would want to use it.


1957 Chevrolet Bel Air coupe, 300hp 327, M20 4 speed


 
tmsnyder 
Senior Member
Posts: 998
tmsnyder
Loc: Buffalo, NY
Reg: 06-13-06
12-05-11 08:37 AM - Post#2165243    
    In response to GaryC

I ended up ordering a flywheel for a 1960 chevy bel air. It's a 30 lb 168 tooth flywheel for an 11 inch clutch. And an 11 inch clutch and flat diaphragm pressure plate. I _think_ that will work with my '55 stock bell housing mounted starter and clutch fork.

Anyone know what the deal is with the raised diaphragm pressure plates vs. the flat diaphragm ones?
'56 Chevy 4dr 210 327ci
'97 GMC K1500 Suburban 6.5TD


 
Rick_L 
Honored Member
Posts: 25769

Loc: Katy, Tx, USA
Reg: 07-06-00
12-05-11 09:52 AM - Post#2165261    
    In response to tmsnyder

The conical spring diaphragm pressure plate is less likely to stick on the floor on a high rpm shift.

 
DZAUTO 
Senior Member
Posts: 7535

Loc: Mustang, OK, USA
Reg: 12-25-99
12-05-11 12:37 PM - Post#2165319    
    In response to Rick_L

  • Rick_L Said:
The conical spring diaphragm pressure plate is less likely to stick on the floor on a high rpm shift.




That is absolutely correct.
BUT, the cone (or raised) diaphragm pressure plate will exert more pressure on the clutch disc providing a stronger engagement. The additional pedal pressure is negligible. Personally, on all my cars, I use the cone diaphragm type pressure plate.
Tom Parsons


 
MikeB 
Senior Member
Posts: 9479
MikeB
Loc: Plano, TX
Reg: 08-28-03
12-05-11 12:55 PM - Post#2165323    
    In response to DZAUTO

Rick and Tom -- If I want to replace my aftermarket 153-tooth, 22-lb flywheel with a stock 30-lb model, what would be a good choice without spending the money for a Hays or McLeod? Or should I just bite the bullet and get a good one? The engine rarely sees 5000 RPM.

Edit: Would I be asking for trouble with this one?
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/ZZZ-50-6516/

I can't find a real GM nodular iron flywheel that's 153T and for 2-piece main seal.
Real Hot Rods have a Clutch!

1955 210 2dr: 327, Brodix IK180 heads, Jones cam, M20, Wilwood front brakes

1982 C-10 SWB pickup, 250 six, 3-speed

My car pictures



Edited by MikeB on 12-05-11 01:51 PM. Reason for edit: No reason given.

 
DZAUTO 
Senior Member
Posts: 7535

Loc: Mustang, OK, USA
Reg: 12-25-99
12-05-11 03:37 PM - Post#2165369    
    In response to MikeB

First, let me hit on a couple of basics.
ALLLLLLLLLLLL 55-85 Chevy V8 flywheels are a 100% bolt-on fit on ANY 55-85 V8 crankshaft.
ALL 168teeth flywheels are also totally interchangeable. BUUUUUUUUUT, the EARLY 168 teeth flywheels only had a bolt pattern for the 10in clutch. SOME early 168 teeth flywheels (HD, police, taxi, truck, etc) did have a bolt pattern for the 11in clutch.
Soooooooooo, here's where I'm going with this. ANY 55-85 168teeth flywheel WITH a bolt pattern for an 11in clutch will work. For your purposes, that's all you need.
Over the years, I've picked up good used 168teeth flywheels with an 11in bolt pattern at swap meets for $25-50. Some needed to be surfaced, but many did not. SOME had burn marks on the surface, but DID NOT have gouges. For those kinds of flywheels, I just bead blasted the heck out of the surface, bolted them on with a new clutch and went on down the road. That is the type of flywheel that is on my 51 Chevy, 56 Vette and 70 Chevelle. Now, I'm talking about regular driver/mild performance engines ---------------------- I'm NOT talking about hardcore, full on race engines!!!!!!!!!
Everybody and their dog tells you to get a scatter shield for a performance car with a 4sp. Well, just think about it, REALLY, how many Chevys have you read, heard, seen that have had a stock flywheel explode under regular driving conditions and kill everyone in the car???

This is an EARLY 168 teeth flywheel with the bolt pattern for ONLY a 10in clutch (the other holes are just for balance). As can be seen, even if holes were drilled and tapped for the larger 11in clutch, there is a groove machined into the flywheel surface (I have NO CLUE why the heck GM did that!!!!!!) which would prevent any benefit from installing an 11in clutch!





Here is a later 168 teeth flywheel with the bolt pattern for the 11in clutch.



Here is part of my stash of various flywheels and flex plates.
Tom Parsons


 
f.i.57chevynut 
Frequent Contributor
Posts: 1422
f.i.57chevynut
Loc: Granada Hills, CA
Reg: 03-04-09
12-06-11 12:16 AM - Post#2165527    
    In response to MikeB

Probably as important is the pressure plate, make sure the plate you use is forged, not cast. This happened to a guy I know. I told him to get a scatter shield, but he shined me on. Then this happened:





After this incident he changed his mind and got a scattershield, and a forged center pressure plate. The flywheel was reusable but he also bought a billet steel flywheel. This was on a 283.
Tom Ordway tom@57chevys.com If you don't drive it, why have it?
http://www.americantorque.com/page/0/139/


 
tmsnyder 
Senior Member
Posts: 998
tmsnyder
Loc: Buffalo, NY
Reg: 06-13-06
12-07-11 09:31 PM - Post#2166200    
    In response to f.i.57chevynut

what rpm did that happen at? did the guy get hurt?
'56 Chevy 4dr 210 327ci
'97 GMC K1500 Suburban 6.5TD


 
f.i.57chevynut 
Frequent Contributor
Posts: 1422
f.i.57chevynut
Loc: Granada Hills, CA
Reg: 03-04-09
12-08-11 10:18 PM - Post#2166577    
    In response to tmsnyder

About 6,000 and it hit his foot and he limped around with a black and blue foot, but he was lucky.
Tom Ordway tom@57chevys.com If you don't drive it, why have it?
http://www.americantorque.com/page/0/139/


 
55 Shaker 
Member
Posts: 1208
55 Shaker
Age: 64
Loc: north central IL.
Reg: 03-13-06
12-09-11 12:05 PM - Post#2166736    
    In response to f.i.57chevynut

FI57 your friend was "VERY LUCKY" he didn't get hurt any worse than he did. I had an explosion in my 57 back in the early 70's. I was running a scattershield, and a chunk of flywheel still made it through the floor board, and got stuck up behind the radio. Two hours later I was still shaking, quite an experience . I put a scttershield in my 55 I got now, my feet are worth more that a few hundred bucks.
The older I get, the more dangerous, I am !!!!


 
Highlander1 
"4th Year" Silver Supporting Member
Posts: 1415

Loc: SE North Carolina
Reg: 08-19-04
12-09-11 06:42 PM - Post#2166883    
    In response to 55 Shaker

I can think of things that happened to me 40 plus years ago that still cause me to shake at times. Call it luck, call it the Grace of God...

Was either your flywheel or Clutch SFI approved? In order to maintain an OE look in my 57 I plan to run both. Expensive, but like you said, what's a few hunderd bucks when it comes to your feet?

Haven't had any Strohs since Ft Knox.

 
55 Shaker 
Member
Posts: 1208
55 Shaker
Age: 64
Loc: north central IL.
Reg: 03-13-06
12-09-11 07:16 PM - Post#2166896    
    In response to Highlander1

Don, I was running a DZ code 302 engine, lots of RPM. The engine happened to come with the scattershield, or I wouldn't have bought one. The 11" flywheel clutch and pressure plate were stock GM. I was just a dumb a$$ gear head kid with no money.
I've been patronizing STROHS now for about 39 years!!!! It's getting harder to find

Brian
The older I get, the more dangerous, I am !!!!


 
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