 Doug_F
Chevytalk Moderator
Posts: 4702
Loc: Bowling Green, KY
Reg: 08-20-01
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08-08-09 05:05 AM - Post#1750039
Please add verbal comments as well...
If some tuning parameter in EFI is somewhat complicated to someone that doesn't understand its inner workings, but if tuned precisely to a specific application, will make things "work better", how would you prefer it be presented in the user software?
See the poll choices which are
- Allow For it to be Custom Edited - Good if you really know what you are doing. If you don't, you'll make things work worse
- Allow Fixed Choices (allow things to either work "ok", or allows you to just try a few and see what works best
- Allow for both of above
- Last choice is - Don't give me a choice, just make it work "ok" for everyone
Doug
1972 Nova
6.0L LSx, 80mm BorgWarner, 4L80E
9.71@141 |
Edited by Doug_F on 08-08-09 05:08 AM. Reason for edit: No reason given.
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Scotts
Frequent Contributor
Posts: 1045
Loc: McDonald, TN
Reg: 07-20-08
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08-08-09 09:11 AM - Post#1750122
In response to Doug_F
The ability to have "fire and forget" tuning is tempting and would allow for a broad base / range of installers, newbie’s and pro’s alike.
The more parameters allowable works in both directions, more control implies tighter tuning abilities, but inadequate knowledge and/or support could present the “POS” syndrome quickly when it heads south.
It’s hard to get a good tune for all variables including cold start/run.
Example (wrong terms but you’ll get it):
If your saying we’ll keep it within 10% of fine tuning allowing more “forgiveness”, with room to “fine tune”, then give me the choice.
If your saying, we’ll get it dead on better than you ever could – then there really is no reason to allow an end user to screw themselves or your brand into the ground – no choice.
If your suggesting, there is a way to do both, then give us the choice.
Basically, if we have an option to try our own parameters, but anything we do will circumvent or undermine the units ability to do a better job than we ever could, I’d nail it shut and lose the hammer.
The last option implies a turn-key solution using a limited source of aftermarket options, 02 sensors, etc? Meaning all variables would need to be known? Not that I would have any objection to sticking with presumable oem / Holley parts...
NO WARRANTY EXPRESSED OR IMPLIED! I may be wrong, have in the past and will be in the future!
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paulm
Member
Posts: 402
Reg: 02-17-03
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08-08-09 10:27 AM - Post#1750149
In response to Doug_F
If some tuning parameter in EFI is somewhat complicated to someone that doesn't understand its inner workings, but if tuned precisely to a specific application, will make things "work better", how would you prefer it be presented in the user software?
In my hobbies and my work I find myself in an endless search to be able to determine how to test things. So given the opportunity to change parameters is great but the goal is to be able to decisively determine if that change really, really had a positive impact.
So...given a set of adjustable parameters is great, but without the proper test/analysis procedures to determine impact...can be maddening as my "seat-of-the-pants" meter is not always accurate.
P.S. So my answer would be...if there is not a very clear, decisive way to determine impact (positive or negative of that specific parameter) then I wouldn't give the ability to change it.
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Scotts
Frequent Contributor
Posts: 1045
Loc: McDonald, TN
Reg: 07-20-08
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08-08-09 11:22 AM - Post#1750181
In response to paulm
Paul brings up a very important point!
Question is - will the software provide logging and results with the ability to quantify the impact of your changes?
Are your only choices "seat-of-the-pants" (thanks Paul), dyno, strip, mileage tracking, etc?
If professional tuning were to provide better results period, closing that option would result in lost opportunity to both the end user and tuning shops?
This will get me killed - from a business standpoint, I would enjoy the benefits associated with installation, support and tuning. Provided the benefits of professional tuning were real and otherwise unobtainable in software / hardware. Otherwise, installation and support only would still offer a viable market - that I currently enjoy!
NO WARRANTY EXPRESSED OR IMPLIED! I may be wrong, have in the past and will be in the future!
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Scotts
Frequent Contributor
Posts: 1045
Loc: McDonald, TN
Reg: 07-20-08
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08-08-09 12:35 PM - Post#1750224
In response to Scotts
Off subject - speaking of tuning - look at the poll, where's the missing 1%? Is that the poll itself – undecided...
NO WARRANTY EXPRESSED OR IMPLIED! I may be wrong, have in the past and will be in the future!
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Steve P
Contributor
Posts: 110
Reg: 07-13-08
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08-08-09 02:28 PM - Post#1750272
In response to Scotts
In my opinion the best choice would be the user chooses his degree of help.
If you dont need help you do everything but beginers could choose to leave all the help boxes ticked, as you get to know what you are doing you could untick the help.
Maybe a degree of autotune to suggest which way to go?
Steve P
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 Rick_L
Honored Member
Posts: 24718
Loc: Katy, Tx, USA
Reg: 07-06-00
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08-08-09 02:46 PM - Post#1750279
In response to Steve P
I agree with Steve P.
This is a tough call from a marketing and cost of software development standpoint.
Let the software make all the decisons and lose the segment of the market that's knowledgeable and wants lots of features and control over them.
Make it too complicated (or seem that way) and lose the entry level market.
What you need is both - and then you need some really well thought out requirements for the software interface and equally sharp s/w development.
Maybe you even have two levels of s/w available. Make some $ on the s/w upgrades rather than restricting the user to the hardware items you sell.
Good luck, tough call.
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Scotts
Frequent Contributor
Posts: 1045
Loc: McDonald, TN
Reg: 07-20-08
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08-08-09 03:01 PM - Post#1750294
In response to Rick_L
That was my problem early on, I just wanted it to work - period. I have seen others threaten, if not follow through bolting a carb back on.
I keep falling back to the PC industry as an example – sorry – but consider the “bloat-ware” and “lite” editions of software. The hook is to get you to look at it, most of them functional, but in some form “crippled”. Requiring additional purchase to open up the full benefits.
The problem is the perception of “cripple-ware” or “cripple-hardware” in this case.
In my first few installs, I was befuddled with parameters. In my mind I though ANYTHING I can analyze a computer should be able to do in a trillionth of a second with complete accuracy. I couldn’t figure out why it would want ME to enter parameters, I am prone to error. I mean how hard is it to turn on the ignition, click a button that says calibrate tps, floor the pedal and let off, it does the rest. Simplified but you get the idea.
If I were asked this question on my first install, I would have chosen pnp, no options, nadda, do it your darned self. I’m not sure if it’s just that “cripple-ware” concept or not, but I want choice.
That’s interesting – if conceivably the software were “locked down”, what would we be giving up? What exactly would you want to do that locked down software would keep you from… Is it the perception I could do it better, cripple-ware OR what exactly are we giving up?
NO WARRANTY EXPRESSED OR IMPLIED! I may be wrong, have in the past and will be in the future!
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Doug_F
Chevytalk Moderator
Posts: 4702
Loc: Bowling Green, KY
Reg: 08-20-01
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08-08-09 03:02 PM - Post#1750296
In response to paulm
If some tuning parameter in EFI is somewhat complicated to someone that doesn't understand its inner workings, but if tuned precisely to a specific application, will make things "work better", how would you prefer it be presented in the user software?
In my hobbies and my work I find myself in an endless search to be able to determine how to test things. So given the opportunity to change parameters is great but the goal is to be able to decisively determine if that change really, really had a positive impact.
So...given a set of adjustable parameters is great, but without the proper test/analysis procedures to determine impact...can be maddening as my "seat-of-the-pants" meter is not always accurate.
P.S. So my answer would be...if there is not a very clear, decisive way to determine impact (positive or negative of that specific parameter) then I wouldn't give the ability to change it.
Excellent point!!!
Doug
1972 Nova
6.0L LSx, 80mm BorgWarner, 4L80E
9.71@141 |
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MONTEGOD7SS
Forum Newbie
Posts: 11
Age: 35
Loc: Reno, NV
Reg: 07-31-09
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08-08-09 05:40 PM - Post#1750384
In response to Doug_F
Doesn't the Thruster ECU have something like this? From what I've heard it has Beginner/Advanced/Expert sections and you choose what you want. You might be able to gain 5% in power each step up, but only if you really know what you're doing. Using very simple math, do you want a 400hp engine that you plug in and go, a 420hp engine that you fine tuned a little yourself, or a 440hp engine that you had to do every step of tuning from scratch? All have their advantages, but man that system would SELL!
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Doug_F
Chevytalk Moderator
Posts: 4702
Loc: Bowling Green, KY
Reg: 08-20-01
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08-08-09 09:34 PM - Post#1750492
In response to MONTEGOD7SS
It sorta does. It isn't as much peak HP, that is about the easiest thing to get. It is the "finer" points of tuning that make an engine run more like an OEM engine. Problem with aftermarket is it is designed for a wide range of engines. When an OEM is calibrating ONE engine in ONE chassis, they can tune many things very precisely. An aftermarket system can't get there as much.
Doug
1972 Nova
6.0L LSx, 80mm BorgWarner, 4L80E
9.71@141 |
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MONTEGOD7SS
Forum Newbie
Posts: 11
Age: 35
Loc: Reno, NV
Reg: 07-31-09
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08-08-09 10:22 PM - Post#1750503
In response to Doug_F
If a system is to be designed like this there would have to be some rules in place on parts. You would have to put a limit on cam duration for sure if you are going to try to get something to auto-tune. Probably limit size from 305-406ci, compression from 8:1-11:1, cam specs probably <230@.050, if running boost make it be 15psi or less. If all of those parameters were met you might be able to get close enough for most folks, but like you said that last little bit of drive-ability is what is really hard to do.
In my previous post I did use peak power as the example, but you are right in that this isn't correct. Peak power is a specific point on the graph at one throttle position (WFO), which compared to tuning for every other part throttle spot is easy. Hypothetically of course, is a "bolt-on" system like this something Holley would be interested in?
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Bullshark
Member
Posts: 85
Loc: St. Charles, Mo.
Reg: 06-15-06
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08-09-09 05:19 AM - Post#1750538
In response to Doug_F
Doug, For what it's worth, My 2 cents.
The aftermarket for FI covers a broad cross section of users from the guy who just wants to quickly upgrade his ride to gain the advantages of DFI to the professional tuners who want to satisfy picky customers with plenty of cash on their hands. Racers who want to squeeze every ounce of performance. Then there are those Engineers like me who can't stand for someone to limit their ability to re-engineer.  Your market covers marine, auto, and anywhere an engine may be used and will probably have there own unique requirements.
Yes, the majority of customers won't have access to sophisticated engine dyno's, and those people will be limited to what they can do, but many of us do. Don't loose that part of the market by limiting capability.
Holley is in the business to "MAKE MONEY"! Keep it as Affordable and Capable as possible for the largest Market possible. Nothing wrong with selling options at a reasonable cost to address market needs. i.e. autotune, Pro-Key, etc. etc.
Bullshark
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stevochar
Forum Newbie
Posts: 36
Age: 49
Loc: mesa az
Reg: 08-09-09
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08-09-09 10:04 AM - Post#1750631
In response to Doug_F
hi guys, I am new to this forum and reading up on efi in hopes of adding efi to my truck.Since doing all the tuning aspects would be a nightmare for me in starting out, to have both options available would be great.. btw, I keep hearing a new holley system is coming for the 950.. any info available... thx steve 
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Twilightoptics
Senior Member
Posts: 760
Loc: Vancouver, WA
Reg: 06-26-04
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08-09-09 11:01 AM - Post#1750650
In response to stevochar
Some fixed parameters sound nice. Then the ability to fine tune them.
Kinda sounds like how it works now. Start with a "Fixed" base map and go from there.
'87 IROC-Z 355 HSR C950 Lunati Voodoo Solid 241/249@.050 .555/.576 lift(1.6) 110LSA, Pro Topline Iron 200cc/64cc, T56
'04 Jeep Wrangler "Rocky Mountain" 4.0L/5spd
'82 RX-7 GSL |
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revheadgl
Contributor
Posts: 452
Loc: Australia
Reg: 03-26-08
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08-10-09 05:25 AM - Post#1751040
In response to Twilightoptics
Thats a better poll than we get from pollies! At least you guys will listen!
Some will flock to the self tuning ability which will ultimately make Holley more money, which in turn, SHOULD reduce the price of the product by volume sales.
BUT..... for us guys/girls that like to tweak... that should also be a feature of the new box as I am sure it will be.
I am happy enough with the currrent box and would use it again, but when the revised one comes out, I will almost certainly use it on the next project.
I am not a slave to advertising, if I were, I would be using Motec/Haltech/Microtech...all made here in Aus. I chose the C950 for its price and it ease of use and its intuitive tuning software....something our homegrown stuff lacks. If you dont believe me, log on, down load the manuals.
Please just make sure that there is no IAC issue with wideband and it includes some form of traction control and we can tune it ourselves!
Perhaps, as the current software is, there could be a 'wall' ie advanced settings, free of charge but serial number activated.
Switch on the advanced settings and that will open up the owner tuning??? Off, and it is self tuning.
Glenn
67 Falcon 289, Weiand 174 @ 8.5 psi boost,
Edelbrock Performer RPM Heads, 216/228 0.483/0.480 0.050 112 degrees LSA. Forged pistons 9.0-1, Holley 950-24s system, Ford TFI, Crane HI-6 & LX92.
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paule
Forum Newbie
Posts: 10
Loc: Oshkosh, WI
Reg: 04-10-07
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08-10-09 06:26 PM - Post#1751475
In response to revheadgl
As an above average mechanic, I have had difficulties with the adjustments for acceleration and temps. I would like to refer to how easy it is to change the squirter, squirter cam, or even choke drum to have the system make multiple changes. I have added wide band and have my set up close, even on 2 chassis dynos (biggest waste of money) since they could not get any better adjustments, and both made accereration worse. Part of my issues are due to being a Ford 351C with a hyd roller cam, quench heads, and ECU controlled timing. It is usually running better every summer, then the snow flies and I wait later and later to make changes when summer arrives. This forum has made this alot easier.
Paul
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andrewrobertson
Forum Newbie
Posts: 98
Reg: 09-18-08
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08-10-09 11:55 PM - Post#1751662
In response to Doug_F
Totally user programmable, but hidden in an "expert" or "advanced" sub menu if it has a very subtle impact on tune, and also with the ability to force default safe values in case the user screws it up during experimentation.
Cheers, Andrew Robertson, New Zealand
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Marv D
Contributor
Posts: 218
Loc: Arizona
Reg: 05-29-07
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08-11-09 07:54 AM - Post#1751770
In response to Doug_F
By nature we are 'tinkerers'. Even those of us who don't have a clue what were doing, will still 'tinker' with things to the point we need a professional to correct our self inflicted misery. I doubt you will find anyone who installs a EFI system on their project that isn't going to want to 'tinker' with the settings to try and find that sweet spot. I mean if we have the where-with-all to twist the wrenches to install a complex system like this, we are surely going to 'think' we have the knowledge to tune it.
The solution here is simple Doug, just stop by the Staples store on your way to work and pick up a box full of those "EASY" buttons. Include one in every EFI package for us dummies. Then when we ' tinker' our way into a corner,, we can always 'EASY' our way out.
Kidding aside,,,, a 'reset' button to recall the last saved base map would be a blessing sometimes. But,, IMO if end users didn't want the 'tinkerability' factor,, they would pay someone else to build it (and tune it), or buy into some of the advertised 'plug and play' EFI systems.
If Holley wanted to push into the 'plug and play' market, a wider array of (conservative) base maps, or even a 'custom basemap' service might be one solution. The liability there is so high it would sure be tough to do a CYA and custom map in one.
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Danny Cabral
Member
Posts: 3145
Loc: Ellington, CT
Reg: 11-03-04
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08-12-09 02:28 AM - Post#1752261
In response to Marv D
Kidding aside...a 'reset' button to recall the last saved base map would be a blessing sometimes.
Marv has a good point here. When I was first learning how to tune EFI, I really wish there was a reset or memory button. So many times, I just wanted to try changing something but needed to quickly return to the previous 'state of tune' for comparison or confirmation purposes.
May God's Grace Bless You
'78 BRONCO: 508" stroker, TFS heads, Dominator MPFI & DIS, A/C, Lentech Strip Terminator AOD, 3:1 Atlas II, modified Dana 44/60-lockers-4.10s, hydroboost/4-disc brakes, ram-assist/heim-over steering, 4" lift, 35" tires |
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skips69
Contributor
Posts: 129
Loc: Sun Prairie, Wisconsin
Reg: 05-11-07
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08-19-09 08:11 PM - Post#1757200
In response to Marv D
By nature we are 'tinkerers'. Even those of us who don't have a clue what were doing, will still 'tinker' with things to the point we need a professional to correct our self inflicted misery.
I agree!
| '69 Camaro ZZ502, C950 MPFI, T56 |
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Steve P
Contributor
Posts: 110
Reg: 07-13-08
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08-19-09 10:56 PM - Post#1757259
In response to skips69
How about rather than have a reset button you have 2 maps that are available to view, one that is stored on the engine computer and another that you are tuning.
Which ever map is at the front of the screen is the one the engine is using.
This would give you the abilaty to make radical changes and see if that made the inprovements you were looking for.
If it worked you just press STORE OR SEND.
Steve P
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revheadgl
Contributor
Posts: 452
Loc: Australia
Reg: 03-26-08
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08-20-09 02:24 AM - Post#1757274
In response to Steve P
Hi
Another plus would be the ability to control popular late type automatic boxes.
Also to be able to print the current screen with one click would be good.. Although it can be done, I can never remember how to do it from the keyboard.
A reset as stated above would be great, rather than reloading or remebering the changes and manually resetting them.
Glenn
Glenn
67 Falcon 289, Weiand 174 @ 8.5 psi boost,
Edelbrock Performer RPM Heads, 216/228 0.483/0.480 0.050 112 degrees LSA. Forged pistons 9.0-1, Holley 950-24s system, Ford TFI, Crane HI-6 & LX92.
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V8Astro Captain
Member
Posts: 34
Reg: 02-05-03
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08-29-09 07:29 PM - Post#1762856
In response to Doug_F
I would like to see better datalogging. The current systems works great for the track. But a fella like me might see the track once or twice a year.
Another EFI system that I've had extensive experience with datalogged into a text file. The rows across the top were the datapoints (RPM, MAP, TPS...) and the column down the side was time. At any point you could slap the space bar and would make a marker in your datalog. GREAT stuff for tuning in town. You run into a dead spot or see the WBO2 hit 16:1 you could just slap the space bar and go back later and look at all the parameters.
Another helpful feature would have a table exactly like the fuel table only it keeps track of all the O2 correctio for each cell. So instead of having VE numbers in the table it would have all the O2 corrections listed out. That way as you drive it records the O2 correction for each cell, making it MUCH easier to look at later.
| '84 Impala: 350 with Dart heads 200cc IR 72cc CC, Ferrea valves, 9.3:1 compression zero clearanced, Comp 276HR cam, 1.52 Pro Mag roller rockers, C950, single T70 turbo, 3" downpipe, custom 4bbl TBI, boxed control arms GM 8.5" G80 4.10's |
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Boosted Thrills
Forum Newbie
Posts: 14
Reg: 08-31-09
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08-31-09 06:16 PM - Post#1764046
In response to V8Astro Captain
how much more user programable do you mean compaired to the current 950 software?
ive been using the holley 950 since spring of 2003.
i have a 4.3L V6. at the time i had ZERO experience tunning EFI or a carb. i followed your manual and did everything it told me to. i loaded the base 4.3L map for 19# injectors (i had 24# installed at the time) the moror fired up after 3 revolutions. IMO it cant get any easier than that.
i have since upgraded to 48# injectors, 2 bar, wideband, pro upgrade, blower configuration and now turbo configuration. all one step at a time and battled my way through the map changes
ill admit ive never had the perfect drivability that a factory ECM offers but i blame most of that to my 1000cfm 4bbl TB, ya its bigger than what i need. i have a stealthram intake im putting on soon and will use a much smaller throttle body. back in 2004 with my NA tune and narowband O2 i got 27mpg at 80mph. in 2005 it droped to 25mpg after the 2 bar, pro upgrade, wideband and powerdyne.
id say the acceleration enrichments are the hardest. id like to see some more info in the manual about how to determine what should be changed. decay rate, TPS, MAP there hase to be a way other than making changes and trying it out.
im hoping the new stuff will fire LS1 coils and maybe control a 4l80e.
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socrace
Forum Newbie
Posts: 8
Reg: 06-07-08
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10-17-09 07:42 AM - Post#1789779
In response to Doug_F
Why is the average ecu 100x harder to setup than a Holly carb? Should be easier given all the "smarts" in modern computers. For example, why not let the user select a "virtual" main jet and adjust "idle mixture" in software just like he's used to? Just some crazy thoughts I had..
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undervenued
Contributor
Posts: 144
Loc: London, Ontario
Reg: 10-12-09
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10-20-09 08:58 AM - Post#1791438
In response to socrace
I was planning on installing a Holley 950 kit on my carbureted car in the spring.
I am by no means a pro when it comes to automotive.
I would love if the software came with an advanced and not-so-advanced mode (i hate to put beginner in there...).
I would look at it as sort of like when you used to have to manually run WinZip on programs, they asked for Classic (advanced) version, or the wizard (noob)version. A Software Wizard version would be great!
With options to fine tune later, of course
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Scotts
Frequent Contributor
Posts: 1045
Loc: McDonald, TN
Reg: 07-20-08
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10-20-09 09:05 AM - Post#1791442
In response to undervenued
ME thinks - from what I read - this is new software AND hardware. I do not believe it will benefit the current/past "950" based folks???
NO WARRANTY EXPRESSED OR IMPLIED! I may be wrong, have in the past and will be in the future!
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camcojb
Senior Member
Posts: 552
Loc: Wilton, California
Reg: 09-01-01
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10-22-09 08:23 PM - Post#1792847
In response to Scotts
I voted totally user programmable only because I've tuned with Gen VII without the pro key (meaning several tables are pre-set and not even available to the end-user) and always needed to get in and tweak some of the hidden stuff to make it run right. However............. I can see the reason this is done, because you can really get upside-down if you don't know what you're doing. I would want full availability, but maybe with certain tables pre-set and a warning to leave them alone unless you're positive they need changing. With Accel you had to spend like $300 additional to get the pro key to unlock those tables............
Jody
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paulm
Member
Posts: 402
Reg: 02-17-03
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10-22-09 08:41 PM - Post#1792852
In response to camcojb
because you can really get upside-down if you don't know what you're doing.
Whew, lucky that's never happened to me as I ALWAYS know what I'm doing...  
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