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Username Post: Verify definition of matching numbers car please!        (Topic#218255)
63fourdoor 
Frequent Contributor
Posts: 1539
63fourdoor
Loc: Addison, Il
Reg: 11-22-06
06-01-09 07:06 PM - Post#1709171    

I'm under the impression that a matching #'s car simply means that it has the original trans, engine, driveshaft and body.
Would any other features of a car be required to consider it a matching numbers car, maybe like paint or interior color?
Thanks, Tom

 
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Anytime 
Senior Member
Posts: 1019
Anytime
Loc: Las Vegas
Reg: 05-23-06
06-01-09 07:40 PM - Post#1709190    
    In response to 63fourdoor

Yes, as well as motor and transmission components, to be true matching numbers, the car should be original including correct paint and interior colors matching the cowl tag info.

1964 Impala SS 409 - 400HP 4 speed Convertible
2010 Harley Davidson Electra-Glide








 
63fourdoor 
Frequent Contributor
Posts: 1539
63fourdoor
Loc: Addison, Il
Reg: 11-22-06
06-01-09 07:48 PM - Post#1709197    
    In response to Anytime

Thanks "anytime", that helps!

 
doubleE 
Valued Contributor
Posts: 3778
doubleE
Loc: Eagan MN
Reg: 06-02-03
06-01-09 07:51 PM - Post#1709200    
    In response to 63fourdoor

I think you are on the right track. Since most of these cars did not have VINs stamped on the engine and trannys (62 and up 327/300hp and 409 cars were VIN stamped, or were suppose to be) the number matching game is not an exact science.

In theory a numbers matching car has "the original" drive train it was born with when it rolled off the assembly line. Drive train to me means the engine, transmission, and rear axel assembly.

Now, as mentioned, most of the X frame cars did not have VINs stamped on the drive train componets. So you have to look at part numbers and casting date codes and compare them to what would be the expected correct part numbers and the car's assembly date stamped on the trim tag. The casting date codes have to precede the assembly date. But by how much can vary by a few days to several weeks, thus not an exact science.

And of course, you will never know if some previous owner found a date correct replacment engine block or other componet.

Eric
Proud owner of My Blue 62 Impala SS


 
63fourdoor 
Frequent Contributor
Posts: 1539
63fourdoor
Loc: Addison, Il
Reg: 11-22-06
06-01-09 08:11 PM - Post#1709212    
    In response to doubleE

Interesting, so with all that said, it is difficult to truly prove that a car is fully a matching numbers car.
I was looking at an old Camaro the other day a guy was selling and he kept telling me that it was a matching numbers car, but the interior was shot, the paint was gone and the rear end was only a few inches off the ground. A real mess. I did believe the engine and drivetrain were original though. I passed it up but wanted clarification of what matching numbers "really" means and how you can verify it.
Anyhow, thanks for enlightment guys.
Tom

 
bowtieollie 
ChevyTalk Subject Matter Expert
Posts: 21124
bowtieollie
Loc: See the USA in your Chevr...
Reg: 12-06-99
06-02-09 05:00 AM - Post#1709354    
    In response to 63fourdoor

Hi Tom,

The term "matching numbers" has lost its meaning over the years.

It is more correct to say the car is original than to say its a matching numbers car.

case in point... I can take a 61 Bel Air, get an Impala VIN from a salvage yard, put on the Impala trunk lid - THEN - go find a 348 with the proper date codes... and the end result would be a "matching numbers" car.

Hmmmmmm - sounds fishy - heh??? IT IS!

So be careful when hearing the term "matching numbers"..... it can mean the car is a CLONE and someone took the time to assemble a car that never was truly built by GM in the first place.
Bowtieollie
Chevytalk.com Moderator


 
daustin 
Contributor
Posts: 327

Age: 54
Loc: Woodstock, Ga
Reg: 12-03-08
06-02-09 07:19 AM - Post#1709413    
    In response to 63fourdoor

On the Camaro's there is a partial VIN stamped on the block so you can verify it does have the original engine. Unless someone has gone and decked the block a bunch, then re-stamped the numbers on it - then it's hard to tell. The tranny's also have a partial VIN on those cars too.
Don
1957 210 2d Post
1961 Bubbletop Impala
1965 Buick LeSabre
1968 327 Camaro
1968 427 COPO Corvette
1984 Monte Carlo SS
1969 RS Camaro
1969 GTO
1976 Camaro
1993 Silverado 3500 Dually 6.5TD
1993 GMC 1500
1994 9C1 Caprice
1997 Silverado 1500


 
DonSSDD 
Silver Supporting Member
Posts: 5116
DonSSDD
Loc: Nova Scotia, Canada
Reg: 08-21-01
06-02-09 09:08 AM - Post#1709466    
    In response to daustin

NCRS has definitions, I think it includes it's OK to restamp a block, as long as you do a good job. Once a car has been "restored" its really difficult to know what's original.

To me, original is original, numbers matching doesn't mean much if its not original. And then you have to ask for my definition of original? Or "numbers matching". It's all a lot of BS, most of the time, depending on who is saying it.

Don
62 Bel Air SC, 59 El Camino (sold), 62 Bel Air SC(sold in Finland is 2011), 63 SWC Vette (sold)
Member #2194
The pic in my Avatar is a Corona Cream Loaner, a buddy wants me to drive it for him, it has original interior


 
raycow 
Honored Member
Posts: 18443

Age: 71
Loc: San Francisco, CA
Reg: 11-26-02
06-02-09 10:46 AM - Post#1709516    
    In response to DonSSDD

All of the above is the reason I never use the term "matching numbers" for any car which didn't originally come from the factory with its major components stamped with the VIN. The term I prefer, and which most people won't argue with, is "date correct".

Ray
Bacon is the gateway drug for vegetarians - Bridget Lancaster


 
BG64SS409 
Contributor
Posts: 601
BG64SS409
Loc: Edmonton,Alberta Canada
Reg: 05-03-08
06-02-09 09:08 PM - Post#1709995    
    In response to bowtieollie

Now you guys did it.. I had to change my signature from #'s matching to "original" numbers...
How very true though...date correct can get confued with original numbers in a hurry, mind you, if I was to blow up my block, you can bet I would pay a huge dollar to get the correctly dated block.

Brett
64SS Impala,Original documented numbers matching 1 of 36 Canadian made SS409 340hp/PG
2013 Callaway Suburban, supercharged 450hp


 
bowtieollie 
ChevyTalk Subject Matter Expert
Posts: 21124
bowtieollie
Loc: See the USA in your Chevr...
Reg: 12-06-99
06-03-09 06:04 PM - Post#1710548    
    In response to DonSSDD

  • DonSSDD Said:
NCRS has definitions, I think it includes it's OK to restamp a block, as long as you do a good job.



Tell that to Al Grenning!

It is not okay to restamp a block under NCRS quidelines and it is almost a certain guarantee that the car is disqualified or will not Top Flight.

Why a few owners have engine rebuild shops sign an affadavit stating if the block is decked that the original stampings are preserved.

If they make a mistake.... it sure will be a duesy!
Bowtieollie
Chevytalk.com Moderator


 
DonSSDD 
Silver Supporting Member
Posts: 5116
DonSSDD
Loc: Nova Scotia, Canada
Reg: 08-21-01
06-04-09 06:21 PM - Post#1711261    
    In response to bowtieollie

You see many Corvette owners looking for blocks to restamp and the guideline was a dated block up to 6 months before the build date of the car? That leaves a lot of room to cheat?

There are also many people out there offering the restamp service.

Again, it depends on the owner's definition of numbers matching. I call it numbers correct unless it came with the car from the factory. My 63 had an Oct 63 block in a Jan 63 car, it was "correct" and had been decked, but was still blank on the pad when I sold it. The original block was blown up racing in 1972 or so.

Don

62 Bel Air SC, 59 El Camino (sold), 62 Bel Air SC(sold in Finland is 2011), 63 SWC Vette (sold)
Member #2194
The pic in my Avatar is a Corona Cream Loaner, a buddy wants me to drive it for him, it has original interior


 
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