Crusty1
Member
Posts: 231
Reg: 01-07-04
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11-27-08 11:24 AM - Post#1572700
Replaced the intake gaskets on my 99 Suburban about 3 years/25k ago. Everything was great until this past summer when we used it for towing our toyhauler. Then I started noticing it was sucking coolant out the puke tank again. Hadn't done this since I fixed it. So. Could I have screwed something up on the original fix which I did myself? Wondered why it lasted 3 yrs/25k and then went bad? I didn't locktite the bolts so could they have loosened up? Could I retorque then without having to tear everything down again? It's been so long I've forgotten a lot of the details...other than it took me 8 hours to do it! I used Fel pro gaskets. Could they have gone bad? We haven't been driving this rig as a daily driver ever since I bought the wife a Lex. Now I know why. 
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CDAUSA
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Loc: Texas Panhandle
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11-27-08 01:01 PM - Post#1572738
In response to Crusty1
First find out exactly where it's leaking, you did the heater fitting fix when you did the gaskets?
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Crusty1
Member
Posts: 231
Reg: 01-07-04
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11-27-08 04:08 PM - Post#1572846
In response to CDAUSA
Yeah. Ie. the fitting off of the intake that is prone to snapping off. I replaced that. And, when I first did the gaskets it was losing antifreeze out the puke tank but I was not finding any in the oil when I changed it. Today, I dumped my oil because the oil was a qt. high on the stick and looked wierd before I fired her up. There's no mistaking that it's gettting into the crank: it looks like the "banana milk shake" eveyone talks about. I thought I had got it right because after the first fix it idled really smooth and didn't use any antifreeze out the puke tank...untill just the past few months. I keep thinking maybe the intake bolts have backed out. Is there an easy way to get at these or is it back to tearing everything apart? I've read that Fel Pro has a new and improved gasket that is imprevious to both gas and anti. It's $80 for the set. And GM has a new gasket at well that's supposedly as good if not better. I thought I was good becuase everone said on this forum just put a new set of Fel Pros in and you're good from here on out. But oviously, that's not the case here. Thanks. Dennis
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CDAUSA
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11-27-08 04:27 PM - Post#1572853
In response to Crusty1
You need the Fel-Pro MS98000T but make sure it's got the stainless stiffener inbetween gasket materials, you should see it all the way across.
I have ~360,000 on the Fel-Pros I replaced my originals with.
There's no other way but to do the dastardly deed, full tilt. Be sure (if you've forgotten) to mark everything perfectly regarding the distributor/timing. The rest is pretty basic, though time consuming.
I sure wouldn't drive it like that, and get that oil out of there. I think I'd change the oil-----take a breakover bar or ratchet and socket/extension, turn it over at least a couple of revolutions to make sure there's no fluid in a cylinder, then fire it up til it's warm and ASAP, get the coolant out of it-----at least below the intake.
After it's fixed, it will take a couple more oil changes to get the bulk out.
Use RTV to make the gasket "wet" appearing and heavier around coolant, follow torque specs going back.
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Crusty1
Member
Posts: 231
Reg: 01-07-04
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11-27-08 06:23 PM - Post#1572899
In response to CDAUSA
Before I knew what was going on. I drove it about 1/2 mile and the parked it. Then I dumped the oil to confirm my fears. I guess I used the wrong fel pros the first round. Didn't know there was anything else out there at the time. I'm going to bite the bullet...because I've got 5 days off from work starting today. Not how I planed to spend my vacation time but oh well. I assume the MS98000T are the spendy ones at around $80. But well worth it considering the amount of time it takes.
When I did the job the last time I marked the dist. but it sort of just went back in the exact same spot and fired right up without having to monkey with it. I'm going to flush the radiator and replace with the green stuff when I'm done. Not sure if the newer version of death cool is really the way to go. Any input? Thanks CDUSA. I appreciate it! Dennis
PS I wouldn't even think about this project right know but with crappy weather here in Oregon just around the corner with the treat of snow, there's no way in hell I'm driving my LS430 up our hill in the snow...even with so called "traction/snow" setting!!
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boogie
Senior Member
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Loc: Louisiana
Reg: 07-11-02
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11-27-08 06:35 PM - Post#1572910
In response to Crusty1
Just a reminder,The torque setting is critical on these gaskets. Final torque is 11 foot pounds...that's 132 inch pounds. Use the proper bolt tightening sequence also.
Not sure what happened but they should not have failed.
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Crusty1
Member
Posts: 231
Reg: 01-07-04
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11-27-08 10:06 PM - Post#1573029
In response to boogie
I torqued in the correct sequence in 2 separate passes. I'm not sure why they would fail either other than the coolant. But the originals which were supposedly not as good as the Fel Pros lasted 88,000 miles and the fel pros just 25k? Maybe the bolts have backed themselves out? Could I try retightening to check the torque values? This would identify any bolts that have backed out and not at proper torque specs. I didn't use loctite, just gasket sealer on the bolts to acheive proper torque values.
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CDAUSA
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11-27-08 10:10 PM - Post#1573031
In response to Crusty1
Another thing you might check, is find a bolt longer than these are and of course, metric, make sure the heads were bored/threaded deep enough, so these aren't bottoming out.
I may have just dreamed this, but somewhere in the past, this was brought up.
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Crusty1
Member
Posts: 231
Reg: 01-07-04
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11-27-08 10:40 PM - Post#1573034
In response to CDAUSA
Is there a "pictorial" tutorial of this project? I think I may have used one on the last job. Having only done this once, I'm not sure I'll remember anything from the last fix....maybe, maybe not.
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CDAUSA
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Posts: 12906
Loc: Texas Panhandle
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11-27-08 11:28 PM - Post#1573049
In response to Crusty1
I'd bet there is if you'll do a google search, but it's simple enough, straightforward enough, I don't see you having any problems.
Just a few things that might make it easy/quicker. Don't try to drain the radiator, get some 3/8 clear vinyl hose (or any other type) and stick it in the bottom of the tank, suck on it til you get it flowing and you can get over 2 gallons out----
Be very/very careful in laying the compressor back. Pick a spot out on the pass. side for it, then tie it back, you can crack one of those aluminum fittings easily. Also grab some rope or tie downs to hold other wires back.
Go ahead and take the air hose/to air horn---from MAF to TB off and get it out from under there, don't try to fight it with it laying out of the way. Just takes loosening one clamp. Be sure and put a rag over the MAF while it's off.
If you've kept tubing sealing caps off of different projects, get the box full and find a fit to put over fuel fittings, any fittings, to keep any crap out of there. If you don't have, grab some baggies and rubber bands to put over them.
A shop-vac comes in real handy while cleaning up, scraping, keep it running and the hose pointed at your work. This aside from keeping everything covered up.
I've read where people talked about removing valve covers, I haven't on any I did. You can loosen the drivers side cover and stick something under there to hold it up til it hits the comp bracket, this allows the bottom half to come out.
Mark plug wires while on the cap, just 1/2/3/4 as they come off one side, there's no doubt as to which side they'll belong to, then leave the drivers side hooked up and just lay it out of the way.
If you don't have one, get a magnetic parts tray, one of those long red or chrome ones, they're cheap enough ($5 at Harbor) to get two, comes in handy on lots of house projects too. Make sure bolts from one side go in one, likewise the other.
I'm sure I could think of a dozen more but I better go lay it down awhile, little things like that save time in the end, and frustration.
Take pics as well, if you've got a digital.
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 Keith_Knox
Moderator and "10th Year" Silver Supporting Member
Posts: 2731
Age: 71
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 11-28-08 09:49 AM - Post#1573167
In response to Crusty1
Have you determined where the leak is. If you have water in the oil, you may have a blown head gasket or a cracked head. Just wondering.
Go to the old FAQ's at the begining of the forum and there is info on the intake gasket replacement. "Renamed: This is the "old" FAQ, please see new one"
I did my son's 98 GMC in March. Search under my name for the info at that time.
Good Luck
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Crusty1
Member
Posts: 231
Reg: 01-07-04
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11-28-08 09:50 AM - Post#1573168
In response to CDAUSA
Thanks for all the great advice on this project. And I think I just "got" what you said about the threads in the heads being deep enough. If I got this right, I need to make sure the intake bolts I've got in there are not just overly long enough to be bottoming out in the head and thus acheving a false torque value by being too long. Is that the idea?
Also, I was wondering if there's a way to check the torque values of the bolts in there right now without having to completely dissasemble the whole thing: ie, is there a way to get at the intake bolts without removing the alt, ac, valve covers, and plenum? I know I' dreaming here because from what I recall from the first intake gasket job on this rig I had to do all of that just to get at the bolts. It must have been trumatic enough for me to remember!!
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CDAUSA
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Posts: 12906
Loc: Texas Panhandle
Reg: 12-31-01
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11-28-08 10:03 AM - Post#1573178
In response to Crusty1
Yep, and yep, you can check the torque on them, you may have to take off another piece that's held on with a nut but I think that's all.
This really isn't that bad a job, you should try doing something similar on a F@rd---------I'm serious.
This just looks bad with all the garbage hung on it. What I dread more than anything else on this, is the bolt holding the fuel line bracket on the back of the head----rest is just time consuming.
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Crusty1
Member
Posts: 231
Reg: 01-07-04
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11-28-08 04:31 PM - Post#1573350
In response to CDAUSA
Hey CDAUSA: I can't get the ac compressor bracket to slide forward: I've taken out 5 bolts and 1 nut and it will not budge. Am I missing something? Also, Keith says I may have a cracked head or blown head gasket. It would really suck to replace the intake gasket only to find this is not the case. How do I determine before I go any farther? I'm already down to gettting the ac braket forward and pulling the dist. Thanks. Dennis
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Crusty1
Member
Posts: 231
Reg: 01-07-04
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11-28-08 05:14 PM - Post#1573363
In response to Crusty1
Well. I read one of your older posts and yeah I forgot the PS pump bolt down by the block.
Also, I retorqued the 8 intake bolts and 4 of them were loose by 1/3 to 1/2 full turn of the wrench. So is that definitive enough to be the problem?
But now I'm wondering if I do have a blown head gasket, cracked head, bad gaskets, or just loose bolts? What's wierd is that, thinking of hi comp dirt race bikes which I know a lot more about, it seems like a leaking head gasket or cracked head would mean a serious loss of compression and subsequent loss of power. Last time I used this rig I pulled a 7,000# toyhauler up a 18% grade with no more problem than usual for a little 5.7 with 372s in the rear.
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CDAUSA
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Posts: 12906
Loc: Texas Panhandle
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11-28-08 06:10 PM - Post#1573395
In response to Crusty1
Yes, lose a head gasket and you'll lose compression-----and more often than not, a cylinder next to it will lose compression too-----where the gasket is gone between them.
Then there's the possibility of losing the head gasket around water and not having anything to do with compression. At least in my experience with SBC/BBC's, I've never had it happen and I've got well over 2M miles on those engines.
The only way I know to find it (If that's the case) with just the intake off is to build plates to seal off the heads, put a jumper hose between the stat and pump with a homemade fitting----and air the engine up.
I wouldn't put over 50 pounds in it though. You can also drill and tap, or weld a collar on one of the plates to put a shrader valve in and do the same thing. Double clamp the hoses.
You could also fill it full of coolant and let it sit at least overnite, pull the plugs and spin it over-----you need to be where you can watch it when you do this though, if it's leaking into a cylinder it will spray/mist out. This won't help if it's leaking into the intake/lifter valley.
I can't say for sure about the loose bolts, but with as little clamping force as they have anyway, it can't be good.
Be sure and take it easy when removing the intake, save as much of the gasket as is, to hopefully be able to see what's going on.
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Keith_Knox
Moderator and "10th Year" Silver Supporting Member
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11-28-08 07:46 PM - Post#1573448
In response to CDAUSA
Do you normally get water in the oil with the bad intake gaskets? Just asking, as there wasn't any in my son's GMC when they went bad. His was an external leak tho. Found it by using the coolant dye.
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BBC-454
Senior Member
Posts: 1400
Loc: Edmonton, Alberta
Reg: 05-11-03
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11-28-08 07:50 PM - Post#1573451
In response to Crusty1
I pulled a 7,000# toyhauler up a 18% grade with no more problem than usual for a little 5.7 with 372s in the rear.
This hard of a workout would more than likely pop a weak head gasket or crack a head if it got hot enough.
Josh R.L.
Licensed Automotive Mechanic
1966 Buick Special 2 door
1961 Chevrolet Apache 10 panel van
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CDAUSA
Needs to Get Out More Member
Posts: 12906
Loc: Texas Panhandle
Reg: 12-31-01
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11-28-08 08:49 PM - Post#1573477
In response to Keith_Knox
No, not on Vortecs usually, more common from what experiences I've read here for a TBI to leak internally. There was one back in the Spring though, that leaked inside.
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NoEcm
Member
Posts: 124
Loc: Seattle, WA
Reg: 08-25-05
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11-28-08 10:40 PM - Post#1573516
In response to Crusty1
Is there a "pictorial" tutorial of this project? I think I may have used one on the last job. Having only done this once, I'm not sure I'll remember anything from the last fix....maybe, maybe not.
http://www.market-place.com/intake/intake.htm
http://www.automotiveforums.com/vbulletin/showthre...
http://www.fullsizechevy.com/forums/general-discus ...
Hope this helps.
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NoEcm
Member
Posts: 124
Loc: Seattle, WA
Reg: 08-25-05
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11-28-08 10:44 PM - Post#1573518
In response to NoEcm
One other thing. When I did my Intake Manifold gasket I used a .38/9mm caliber cleaning brush and some lacquer thinner to clean both the female and male threads for the mounting bolts (along with some blue loctite).
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CDAUSA
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11-29-08 04:31 AM - Post#1573576
In response to NoEcm
After going through NOECM's links, a few things I would add.
It helps to have been keeping the engine clean all along, but if you haven't, take the poor thing to a car wash before you start (if drivable) and concentrate on gasket separation areas, anywhere dirt might fall into the engine when opening it up.
Now is a good time to clean the throttle body and EGR valve, it may be too much to add for some people but if you're waiting on anything, or the xtra 20 minutes isn't going to bother you, do it while the intake is off.
Split the intake halves-----and figure on the biggest mess you've ever tackled-----but get all spotless before you go back. There's too much of a chance of something falling out of the intake into the port after jostling all this stuff around.
After you've got it off and out, you can scrape a big part of that crap out, wipe it out, so it doesn't take so much carb/brake cleaner to get it right. While there, check the screws holding the injectors in on the bottom of the spider assembly.
I saw mention of the distributor gear, there was a period of time where they missed the temper on the gear itself, they're soft and wear alot. But if yours is just "bright" appearing where it's been running, this is normal wear and IMO, you should leave it alone. Only if the wear if very apparent should you bother with it. Those worn, will actually wear "sharp" where the two run on each other.
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Crusty1
Member
Posts: 231
Reg: 01-07-04
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11-29-08 09:53 AM - Post#1573704
In response to CDAUSA
Thanks. Never overheated this rig. Always runs about 210 and maybe another 20 degrees hotter when towing.
I didn't have water in the oil before. So now I'm wondering if I just do the intake gasket and see if that fixes it or something else. If it's going to be a head or head gasket job this may have to wait until springtime as I'm just too busy now. I do recall some guys saying back when I did the original job that water in the oil or the "banana milkshake" look was not that ucommon for a bad intake gasket. Just depends where it happened.
Also, the rig ran fine just before I tore it apart: smooth idle, no loss of power (climing our hill to the house which is steep), etc. Just sucking out the puke tank and then the wierd looking oil when I dumped it on Thursday.
If there's an easy tale tale sign that I can use while this thing is ripped apart to know if it's a head issue and not intake, I'll use that to decide. Otherwise it's gettig new intake gaskets and a couple hours of drive time to see what's going on.
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someotherguy
Moderator
Posts: 23394
Age: 43
Loc: Texas
Reg: 08-01-03
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11-29-08 12:10 PM - Post#1573788
In response to Crusty1
I've seen a few of both varieties (TBI and Vortec) that let coolant into the oil when the intake gaskets failed. Just pictures on the net of people doing the job, not one of my own yet, but I do have a couple trucks here with water in the oil and haven't pulled the top down yet to see if it's intake or heads.
Richard
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Crusty1
Member
Posts: 231
Reg: 01-07-04
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11-30-08 04:07 PM - Post#1574635
In response to someotherguy
OK. She's back together. Why do men refer to cars as "she." Probably because they can bring you pleasure and piss you off all in the same couple of minutes. So instead of just retorquing and calling it good, I installed a set of Fel Pro MS98000Ts. They defintely look like serious gaskets. The old ones didn't look that bad. Though you can see some "gunk:" oil and AF residue in these pics on the back cylinders:
http://i386.photobucket.com/albums/oo303/Stewey33 0...
http://i386.photobucket.com/albums/oo303/Stewey33 0...
It started right up and purred. I topped off the AF and sat there over the rad filler to keep filling as needed. No real bubbles to speak of after about a minute of random blurps. So if this was really a head gasket I thought I'd see something but I realize it still could be a head gasket but time will tell. Thanks for all the advice/feedback. I'll let you know how it goes. I think a 383 may be in my future!
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Crusty1
Member
Posts: 231
Reg: 01-07-04
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12-03-08 06:58 PM - Post#1577074
In response to Crusty1
Well. After a couple days of driving and 240 miles, it looks like maybe the problem of determining whether it was leaking intake gaskets or a bad head gasket may be more certain. After installing a set of the Fel Pro MS98000Ts it looks like the leaking has stopped. I really think the problem was the bolts backed out just enough to start the leaking. I could have retorqued but decided to replace the gaskets instead. At only $60 I thought it was worth it since I spent the time to tear everything down. I also loctited the bolts, though I know this is not recommended by all because of skewed torqe values but after having this happen I decided to give this a try. Thanks to all for the great advice just in case anyone is reading this!
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