 Woogeroo
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 05-20-08 12:42 AM - Post#1436975
I was rotating the tires on my '65 c10 and when I took the drum off of the right rear, I noticed this black stuff all over the brake shoes:
picture 1
So, if it is the wheel cylinder leaking, I have parts for that...
If it is a rear axle seal... how does that work? I read about it in the shop manual, but I'm fuzzy on what to do inside the differential cover and what tools to use to properly make the axle come out.
picture 2
picture 3
Any tips or suggestions welcome.
Thanks,
-W
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Vaughn
"8th Year" Gold Supporting Member
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05-20-08 11:10 AM - Post#1437346
In response to Woogeroo
If the black stuff is thick and greasy, it is usually because the seal is leaking behind the axle.
If it isn't greasy, it is the wheel cylinder. The rest of the drum will look wet, and the back side of the backing plate will look wet also.
It's sometimes a little difficult to tell whether it is greasy or not, you have to observe it closely. I usually judge it by the wet look of the drum and backing plate.
If it does turn out to be greasy, you will need to replace the seal and the outer wheel bearing, you do this by:
Pull the rear cover off of the differential and drain gear oil. It is nasty smelling, so don't wear any clothes that you can't throw away. No matter how much you wash stuff exposed to gear oil, you will never completely get rid of the smell or the stain.
On the carrier, there will be 4 spider gears. 2 of them will be riding on a idler shaft going through the carrier (the ones that aren't hooked to the axle shafts) This idler shaft needs to be removed, and the idler spider gears removed. On one side of the carrier, the will be a bolt holding in this idler pin, you need to remove this locking bolt (do NOT lose this), and then you can remove the idler shaft.
Once you have the idler shaft and spider gears out of the way, on the two remaining spider gear you will see a C-clip holding the end of the axle shaft in the carrier. You will need to push inward on the outer axle flange, then remove the large c-clip holding it in place.
From there, you can pull the entire axle shaft out, and then remove the end seals and the wheel bearing. I would replace both the wheel bearings on either side, along with the end seals. The wheel bearings may fight you coming out, you may need a specific bearing puller w/ slide hammer to get them out.
Be certain to lube the end seals before replacing the axle shafts The lip of the seal faces inwards towards the center.
Reverse procedure to reassemble.
Be certain to clean all traces of grease out of the drum and backing plate, replace the wheel cylinders and use new brake parts.
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billydonn
Junior Contributor
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05-20-08 06:41 PM - Post#1437659
In response to Woogeroo
Here's a video of c-clip axle removal on a Chevelle 10 bolt... it is very similar to our trucks.
http://videos.streetfire.net/video/1965-Chevelle-B ...
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Woogeroo
"5th Year" Silver Supporting Member
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05-21-08 01:21 AM - Post#1437784
In response to billydonn
Vaughn - thanks for write up of all the steps.
billydonn - thanks for sharing that video link.
Man, this is going way down into the rabbit hole...
Hmn...
-W
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sidworks
Senior Member
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05-21-08 06:02 AM - Post#1437903
In response to Woogeroo
actually all you have to do is look at the source to find out. is it leaking oil at the axle flange. for the wheel cyl all that you have to do is pull back the rubber boot on the end of the wheel cyl and have a look and see if it is wet and leaking brake fluid
ron
| 64 GMC 4x4 1/2t panel 283,t5,indepedent np205 and 3/4t axles |
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billydonn
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05-21-08 01:37 PM - Post#1438245
In response to Vaughn
Vaughn,
I was wondering is it possible to replace the seals but not the axle bearings... just curious.
BD
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sidworks
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05-21-08 02:17 PM - Post#1438266
In response to billydonn
one has to take the brg off to change the seal and that usually means cutting the lock ring off that holds the brg on. to get a new lock ring , you have to buy the brg.
one should also check the axle for wear at the location where the seal rides on the axle and there you have 4 choices. 1; speedi-sleeve, 2; weld it up and machine the surface back, 3; new axle, 4; leave it and replace the seal again or it may still prefer to leak
ron
| 64 GMC 4x4 1/2t panel 283,t5,indepedent np205 and 3/4t axles |
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raycow
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05-21-08 04:25 PM - Post#1438344
In response to sidworks
If billydonn has a stock 1/2 ton rear, it is the C-clip type. The bearing is pressed into the axle housing and the seal is outboard of the bearing. I have replaced the seals only on this type of rear and left the bearings alone.
Ray
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sidworks
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05-21-08 05:17 PM - Post#1438379
In response to raycow
Perhaps I was thinking of the old passenger car axles. I thought that was what was in the rear of my 4 x 4 .I can remember the rear bearings in the back of my 4 x 4 not lasting that long . they couldn't take the load that I was carrying and pulling, so I went to full floating back in about 92. my 4 x 4 is a GMC Canadian which is basically a Chev
ron
| 64 GMC 4x4 1/2t panel 283,t5,indepedent np205 and 3/4t axles |
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Vaughn
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05-21-08 06:50 PM - Post#1438468
In response to sidworks
You can, but it is a good idea to change them.
If they have never been changed, they may not be good enough to run as is. If the bearing fails, it can take out the axle shaft and cause an accident. If it merely locks up, it can score the axle shaft to the point that it may not be used again, plus it will cause damage to the brakes.
Check out prices for rear axle bearings at a few different parts stores, it may not be as expensive as you might think.
If you are going to go that far into the rear end, it generally makes sense to just change them. They do wear out, just like front wheel bearings - but they rarely get replaced.
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billydonn
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05-22-08 04:53 AM - Post#1438653
In response to Vaughn
Thanks guys,
(It is stock 1/2 ton c-clip axle, yes.) I wasn't at all concerend about expense... it was more of an academic question (or nostalgia) as I thought I remembered seeing my dad split seals like that for replacement back in the day. I realize it is best just to bang out all the 40 year old parts and replace them with new... thanks again.
BD
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Woogeroo
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 05-24-08 01:28 PM - Post#1440252
In response to billydonn
Thanks for the replies everyone.
With working and being in school... I decided to take it to the shop. I figured I'd get it apart, and hit a snag or something and it'd really mess up my schedule.
I was seriously pondering doing it myself... but it seems anytime I get that far down the rabbit hole with this truck, I need some basic part and it'll take two days to get it... so everything stops.
The fun of a daily driver!
Well, at least my folks let me borrow their rides for school and work.
Thanks again fellas,
-W
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Woogeroo
"5th Year" Silver Supporting Member
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 05-28-08 12:07 AM - Post#1442721
In response to Woogeroo
A prelimnary report from the shop says there is some damage to the axle shaft... so he is running down part numbers from GM.
I have not talked to him directly yet, but it seems there is that damage, and there were some shims missing from the gears or something.
I'll keep ya'll informed... I might have to beg some part numbers off you guys tomorrow.
-W
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sidworks
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05-28-08 12:40 AM - Post#1442727
In response to Woogeroo
there is no inner race with these brgs and hey run directly on the axle shaft and this is where the wear comes in and that puts more stress on the top of the seal and that causes more wear there. most second hand axles will also have some wear there and it may be difficult to find new ones, the alternative is to perhaps have that or those axles built up and machined back to d
standard
ron
| 64 GMC 4x4 1/2t panel 283,t5,indepedent np205 and 3/4t axles |
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billydonn
Junior Contributor
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05-28-08 06:20 AM - Post#1442856
In response to Woogeroo
Sounds like ole Matraca is finally due for some new replacement axles... I saw some at ECE or CPP the other day. If you were ever going to convert to five bolt/disc, now would be the time! Keep is posted...
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Vaughn
"8th Year" Gold Supporting Member
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05-28-08 09:12 AM - Post#1442970
In response to billydonn
You can get new Moser axles with the right spline count (and the axles are much stronger), and include a 5 bolt axle flange at the same time. If you have a 5-bolt front disk swap, this will make the front wheels match the rear. Yes,they are a little expensive ($300-ish) but you will never have to worry about it again.
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sidworks
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05-28-08 09:16 AM - Post#1442972
In response to Vaughn
Vaughn; do they not also wear the same(brg race) as the orig axle though I do imagine that most that would buy them would more than likely be dead in another 40 years
ron
| 64 GMC 4x4 1/2t panel 283,t5,indepedent np205 and 3/4t axles |
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Vaughn
"8th Year" Gold Supporting Member
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05-28-08 09:32 AM - Post#1442983
In response to sidworks
They come any way you want them. They are made from scratch. I had mine set up for a later model axle spline, because I found a rebuilt posi from a later truck (it had 31 spline spider gears) - and I had them set to the five bolt pattern.
Yes, they would probably far outlast anyone that bought them, unless you really abused them. Their standard axle is far superior to the metallurgy in the original axle. But, since it is produced from their cheapest axle metal stock, you can't really save any money by going with a cheaper axle material. So it really isn't overkill.
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Woogeroo
"5th Year" Silver Supporting Member
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05-28-08 10:14 AM - Post#1443013
In response to Vaughn
Does anyone have any sources for axle shafts?
I found this one through google:
http://www.uspowertrain.com/axlesGM.htm
3893605 <- gm part number my mechanic gave me
I also found this one:
http://www.drivetrain.com/axle.html
Anyone else?
-W
----
moser axles huh? I'll poke around there...
-W
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Woogeroo
"5th Year" Silver Supporting Member
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05-28-08 10:54 AM - Post#1443051
In response to billydonn
billydonn,
You are correct, ECE has the axle shafts. I am sending them a email to confirm a few things with them... dunno where I'll get them at yet.
Thanks,
-W
update:
http://www.earlyclassic.com
search for: axle shaft
Axle Shafts, Replacement & Conversion
#02-6369AXL - '63-'69 6-Lug Replacement Axles Only
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sidworks
Senior Member
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05-28-08 11:03 AM - Post#1443059
In response to Woogeroo
Vaughn and I were just talking about Moser axle. either google moser or ask Vaughn
ron
| 64 GMC 4x4 1/2t panel 283,t5,indepedent np205 and 3/4t axles |
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Vaughn
"8th Year" Gold Supporting Member
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Loc: Colorado Springs, CO
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05-28-08 12:51 PM - Post#1443163
In response to sidworks
Currie can also make axleshafts.
I mentioned Moser because it seemed to be the cheapest.
Nothing wrong with ECE, except you can't specify axle spline number. They are a reseller, they will get it from a different shop and add a little cost to it before selling it to you.
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billydonn
Junior Contributor
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05-28-08 04:16 PM - Post#1443314
In response to Vaughn
Currie can also make axleshafts.
I mentioned Moser because it seemed to be the cheapest.
Nothing wrong with ECE, except you can't specify axle spline number. They are a reseller, they will get it from a different shop and add a little cost to it before selling it to you.
Any idea where ECE gets their axles? I was thinking of ordering a new set from Moser as a preventative measure (old redrilled ones are 42 years old and cannot last forever!) and was wondering if you can just describe what you want to them or if you have to send them exact measurements. Your advice please.
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billydonn
Junior Contributor
Posts: 580
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05-28-08 04:22 PM - Post#1443320
In response to Woogeroo
Woog,
ECE website is clunky, eh? I sure thought I saw orginal axles at CPP too or maybe it was Brothers or Classic Parts. Keep us informed of your progress... photos would be fun, and add to your collection! Are you considering modernizing to discs? Just curious...
BD
Another source of axles is
http://www.tomsdifferentials.com/catalog.asp?pg=10
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Rich 5150 69
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05-28-08 05:01 PM - Post#1443351
In response to billydonn
He might also try http://yukonaxles.com/Distributors.aspx
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Vaughn
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05-28-08 05:23 PM - Post#1443362
In response to Rich 5150 69
Billydon,
You can just tell them the application, they can make them up from that.
But, they prefer actual measurements though. That way no mistakes are made.
They will tell you up front that there is no returning custom made axles, so you'd better be sure you have all the right measurements from the start.
IF someone swapped in a different year axle, the spline counts may be different - so I would check everything out before you pull the trigger on it.
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billydonn
Junior Contributor
Posts: 580
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05-28-08 05:49 PM - Post#1443375
In response to Vaughn
10-4... thanks for the input!
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Woogeroo
"5th Year" Silver Supporting Member
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05-31-08 09:21 PM - Post#1445684
In response to billydonn
Thanks to everyone who posted here and sent me PM's.
Hopefully, the axles I bought are enroute to my mechanic.
This all started with a busted rear seal and has turned into a 'big project'.
It's a good thing I took my truck to him to start with, because I would have been way over my head by now.
It's just a beat up truck... but I miss it, I want it back... It looked so sad in pieces at the garage sitting on jack stands under the rear axle.
-W
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