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Username Post: Non Detergent oil        (Topic#181250)
emmartin 
Contributor
Posts: 383

Loc: York Haven Pa. USA
Reg: 02-01-01
02-03-08 08:36 PM - Post#1357841    

Just for your information I found NON Detergent oil, in several weight at the local Farm and Home store. Just my 2 cent worth. Ed

75 Caprice Classic Rag Top with 14,200 unrestored rain free miles.


Senior Customer Service Engineer




 




rbl2 
Senior Member
Posts: 508
rbl2
Age: 67
Loc: Mississippi
Reg: 04-05-05
02-03-08 10:07 PM - Post#1357909    
    In response to emmartin

I get mine from NAPA but it only comes in 30 w.

26 Roadster


Bill


 
Royer 
Needs to Get Out More Member
Posts: 11411

Loc: Bloomfield Hills, Michiga...
Reg: 09-25-01
02-04-08 04:22 AM - Post#1358008    
    In response to rbl2

I personaly wouldn't want to use any non-detergent oil in these old engines - as you really have no idea as to what specs it does meet (if any). Rather, I'd suggest pulling the pan and cleaning out any sludge deposits that you can. Then start using a good modern detergent oil meeting Diesel (compression ignition engine) specs. Change at short intervals the first couple times.

Royer



 
rbl2 
Senior Member
Posts: 508
rbl2
Age: 67
Loc: Mississippi
Reg: 04-05-05
02-04-08 09:55 AM - Post#1358146    
    In response to Royer

It would seem to me that you'd need to clean out more than the pan. There'd be build up on and under the bearings (if they're inserts) as well as the rings. Removing this build up would make for larger clearances.

I was always taught that you should NEVER go from non-detergent oil to detergent oil because the detergent oil would clean out the engine causing the above mentioned problems. This would cause the engine to burn oil or knock.

I tried it once and it wasn't long before I had a bearing knock. Granted, it could be argued that the engine may have knocked about that time anyhow.

The oil I get from NAPA is Vavoline. That's a name brand. The specs are printed on the bottle. SAE 30. Meets or exceeds service SB.

Edited to add that I have never had any problem using a good grade non-detergent oil. As with any oil, I change it regularly.

26 Roadster


Bill


Edited by rbl2 on 02-04-08 09:57 AM. Reason for edit: No reason given.

 
2blu52 
"16th Year" Silver Supporting Member
Posts: 17948
2blu52
Age: 84
Loc: Montana
Reg: 03-12-02
02-04-08 10:18 AM - Post#1358177    
    In response to rbl2

This is not my usual forum but the comment "Non Detergent Oil" caught my eye. My thoughts are that any engine that has been run since the late 50s most likelly has had detergent oil in it. Non detergent has not held a stong spot of merchandising shelves since then. So for general purposes detergent has been used. In the rare instance where it has not then the suggestion of cleaning the engine and converting to detergent would be what I would do. If the engine is a recent rebuild then I would start it off on detergent oil.

"PEACE IS THAT GLORIUS MOMENT IN HISTORY WHEN EVERY ONE STANDS AROUND RELOADING"

THOMAS JEFFERSON


 
rbl2 
Senior Member
Posts: 508
rbl2
Age: 67
Loc: Mississippi
Reg: 04-05-05
02-04-08 12:11 PM - Post#1358267    
    In response to 2blu52

I agree. If the engine has just been rebuilt use a detergent multi-grade oil. If the engine has been using that oil all along then continue to use it.

26 Roadster


Bill


 
Royer 
Needs to Get Out More Member
Posts: 11411

Loc: Bloomfield Hills, Michiga...
Reg: 09-25-01
02-04-08 12:16 PM - Post#1358271    
    In response to rbl2

Is it Valvolene or Vavolene? Whatever, if it states that it meets SAE service SB criteria, that is some assurance. Personally though, I would still clean out what sludge that I could and switch to use of a modern detergent oil as I suggested earlier. I also agree with the writer who posted suggesting that the engine has very likely seen some detergent over the years anyway.

Royer



 
rbl2 
Senior Member
Posts: 508
rbl2
Age: 67
Loc: Mississippi
Reg: 04-05-05
02-04-08 01:10 PM - Post#1358314    
    In response to Royer

I'll not put a detergent oil in my 26 Chevy with untold miles on it since its last rebuild. The risk of harming the engine is too great. Keep in mind that the word detergent is the active word here. What does detergent do? It cleans. The last thing I need is to increase the clearances on bearings and rings. That would be inviting trouble.

The oil I use is Valvoline.



26 Roadster


Bill


 
RSB 
Senior Member
Posts: 513
RSB
Loc: San Jose, CA, USA
Reg: 06-21-00
02-04-08 01:19 PM - Post#1358320    
    In response to rbl2

I don't think the issue is with increasing clearances so much as it is one of knocking loose old crud that's attached itself to the innards of the engine where it can find its way into the moving surfaces such as bearings/cyl walls and cause damage.

The purpose of a detergent oil is to pick up contaminants and keep them in suspension so the oil filter can do its job. If you don't have an oil filter, then that dirty oil just recirculates.

Ron




 
Royer 
Needs to Get Out More Member
Posts: 11411

Loc: Bloomfield Hills, Michiga...
Reg: 09-25-01
02-04-08 01:41 PM - Post#1358330    
    In response to RSB

And thus my rationale for recommending that the oil be changed on short intervals for a while after switching to a detergent.

But lets not get into an argument. It is certainly your car and you should definitely do as you want with it. I've used nothing but detergent oils in all of my vehicles, including collector vehicles, for many years and have had no problems. But possibly I'm just lucky.

Royer



 
2blu52 
"16th Year" Silver Supporting Member
Posts: 17948
2blu52
Age: 84
Loc: Montana
Reg: 03-12-02
02-04-08 02:48 PM - Post#1358377    
    In response to Royer

  • Royer Said:
And thus my rationale for recommending that the oil be changed on short intervals for a while after switching to a detergent.

But lets not get into an argument. It is certainly your car and you should definitely do as you want with it. I've used nothing but detergent oils in all of my vehicles, including collector vehicles, for many years and have had no problems. But possibly I'm just lucky.

Royer


I will add this to my comments earlier. In 1950 I worked for a Shell station, the owenrs purchased the Union 76 bulk plant and we of course switched to union products. At that time detergent oils were rare and if any were of say "light duty quality". We had an employee meeting suggesting that any car out there that had high mileage on it was not a candidate for the new high detergent heavy duty "Royal Triton", but engines with lower mileage could benefit from the newer oil. I was not suggesting that some one take an engine with lots of miles with non detergent oil and change it over to detergent. Detergent oil does indeed clean the engine and as stated holds the dirt in suspension until it passes through the filter. I personally have never worried about this but then I have never owned a 28 Chevrolet either. But I did own a two owner 38 Chevrolet with 25,000 miles on it which I switched to Royal Triton and did not have a problem. Now I will go back to my usual forum.


"PEACE IS THAT GLORIUS MOMENT IN HISTORY WHEN EVERY ONE STANDS AROUND RELOADING"

THOMAS JEFFERSON


 
rbl2 
Senior Member
Posts: 508
rbl2
Age: 67
Loc: Mississippi
Reg: 04-05-05
02-04-08 08:41 PM - Post#1358701    
    In response to Royer

No arguement on my part. I see this as simply an exchange of opinions.

I would agree that if someone wanted to go from nondetergent to high detergent he should change the oil every few hundred miles slowly building up to whatever his normal routine is.

When I bought my 26 I was told it had run when parked 25-30 years before. The first things I did was to see if the motor was froze up by means of the hand crank. It wasn't. then I squirted MMO in each cylinder liberally, spun the engine by hand a few turns and allowed it to set a few days when I repeated this operation. I did this several times.

Meanwhile I dropped the oil and replaced it with kerosene.

After assuring myself the cylinders were well lubricated, keeping the plugs removed, I spun the engine using the starter. I then replaced the kerosene with nondetergent oil.

After replacing points, condensor, plugs, etc. I turned the key on and lo and behold the damn thing fired up. Over a period of a week or so I ran it maybe an hr and then changed the oil again. Once on the road I changed it about every hundred miles for the first few changes, then 500 for a few changes. Now I change it every 1,000, or once a year, whichever comes first.

The car runs fine. It doesn't smoke at all unless I put some MMO in the fuel. It has had it's share of gremlins though, which is to be expected after all those years of sitting.

I belieeve I am past the gremlins and now am planning on doing the body work and paint. Anyone want to help or contribute to that cause would be more than welcome to.

26 Roadster


Bill


 
2blu52 
"16th Year" Silver Supporting Member
Posts: 17948
2blu52
Age: 84
Loc: Montana
Reg: 03-12-02
02-05-08 11:17 AM - Post#1359160    
    In response to rbl2

Your comment about running Kerosene through the engine brought back a memory of using what we called flushing oil. With a car that was in daily use we would drain the oil (warm engine) then fill with Flushing oil, run it that way for a short time and then change oil again. Most cars did not have a filter as I recall so there was no filter change. Thanks for the memory!!

"PEACE IS THAT GLORIUS MOMENT IN HISTORY WHEN EVERY ONE STANDS AROUND RELOADING"

THOMAS JEFFERSON


Edited by 2blu52 on 02-05-08 11:18 AM. Reason for edit: No reason given.

 
rbl2 
Senior Member
Posts: 508
rbl2
Age: 67
Loc: Mississippi
Reg: 04-05-05
02-05-08 12:50 PM - Post#1359228    
    In response to 2blu52

I'd forgotton all about flushing oil. What I do remember is changing the oil every 2k. The add on filters were a PITA.

I also remember having an early 50's Chevy and pulling in a gas station and telling the attendant to "filler up and chack the gas". I was serious too.

26 Roadster


Bill


 
Royer 
Needs to Get Out More Member
Posts: 11411

Loc: Bloomfield Hills, Michiga...
Reg: 09-25-01
02-05-08 01:07 PM - Post#1359240    
    In response to rbl2

Why is it that you feel that way about the add-on partial-flow oil filters? If you were to simply go and get an oil suction gun, you can suck most of the oil out of the canister - and if you simply have a rag handy to place the old element on as you lift it out, there isn't any mess to speak of. Dropping in a new filter element and putting the top back on is a piece of cake.

Plus, those filters are pretty much always located up on top where they're easily accessible. I always thought that beat a spin-on cartridge that you had to get at underneath the car - and wiggle it past a tie rod and hot exhaust pipe as well!

Royer



 
rbl2 
Senior Member
Posts: 508
rbl2
Age: 67
Loc: Mississippi
Reg: 04-05-05
02-05-08 05:52 PM - Post#1359469    
    In response to Royer

Probably because I was too poor to afford a suction pump and had to use rags.

26 Roadster


Bill


 
Coley 
Valued Contributor
Posts: 3973

Age: 74
Loc: Milledgeville, IL. 61051
Reg: 11-23-00
02-10-08 07:04 AM - Post#1362730    
    In response to 2blu52

Back in the 50s, my brother ran Royal Triton in his '57 Buick.
He was always proud of the fact that his oil always looked better than mine in my '57 Chevy.

My oil came out dirty looking after 2000 miles but his still had some color to it and looked much cleaner.

I had just gotten out of mechanic's school and suggested we put valve cover gaskets on, as they both had a small leak.

My Chevy was as clean as could be inside, but his Buick was a mess!!!

The Royal Triton wasn't cleaning anything!!

He changed to Pennzoil, as I used and his oil came out dirty next time also.

I also have used detergent oil in all of my vehicles, even my '33 Chevy.

Crud under a slip in bearing should cause more wear on it, which I don't believe happens. So detergent oil isn't going to affect bearings. And if crud is keeping your rings against the cylinder wall, then you need new rings anyway.
But that is just my opine....

Any man that thinks he is too old to learn new things, probably always was....


 
rbl2 
Senior Member
Posts: 508
rbl2
Age: 67
Loc: Mississippi
Reg: 04-05-05
02-10-08 08:47 PM - Post#1363205    
    In response to Coley

Good point. But if the crud under a bearing is removed then you have added clearance above which causes more wear.

But that's just my opinion too. If I ever get around to rebuilding my 26 I'll definitely use hi detergent oil in it afterwards.

26 Roadster


Bill


 
David Hayward 
Deceased RIP David
Posts: 7051
David Hayward
Age: 61
Loc: New Forest, UK
Reg: 04-10-99
02-17-08 01:00 PM - Post#1368180    
    In response to rbl2

I am making this thread sticky as it has some excellent info in it!

Automotive Historian, Writer & Author

Avatar: sole surviving 1939 Chevrolet truck assembled in Southampton, England


 
Tinindian 
Senior Member
Posts: 379

Loc: Victoria, BC, Canada
Reg: 10-16-02
04-14-08 10:40 PM - Post#1411699    
    In response to David Hayward

The oil filter on my Pontiac is a throwaway can that is mounted horizontalyin the channel of the frame just in front of the steering box. It isn't messy to change but they are very scarce. I find that the partial flow filter only filters for between 500 and 800 miles (then it remains cold to the touch).
When I started driving it, it had 99,000 miles on the odometer. I have always used (except for a couple of trials) single weight high detergent oil and changed it ever three months (about three thousand miles). Now with a total of 487,000 miles (3000,000 since an engine overhaul)I use 20 wt oil, change it every three months and havn't had a oil filter in the system for 35 years.

Happy Hobbying "New Series Big Six" 6-30 Pontiac Custom Sedan Assembled on June 6, 1930 in Regina, Saskatchewan, Canada.


 
David Hayward 
Deceased RIP David
Posts: 7051
David Hayward
Age: 61
Loc: New Forest, UK
Reg: 04-10-99
04-15-08 01:32 PM - Post#1412092    
    In response to Tinindian

Thanks for that! Anyone else got any comments please?

Automotive Historian, Writer & Author

Avatar: sole surviving 1939 Chevrolet truck assembled in Southampton, England


 
MrMack 
Senior Member
Posts: 1212
MrMack
Loc: Comanche, TX
Reg: 12-07-04
06-11-10 11:39 AM - Post#1928578    
    In response to rbl2

nice paint job RBL2 did you and Chipper paint it with a roller?


Drive your Old Chevrolets every day!and see the Great U.S.A!


 
Ray P W 
Contributor
Posts: 314

Reg: 09-30-15
01-12-17 05:11 PM - Post#2670804    
    In response to David Hayward

"Thanks for that! Anyone else got any comments please?"

David,

No comment from me but I do have a question. Why don't any of the people with an interest in this question contact a lubrication engineer at one of the oil companies? Those guys love to help people in the car hobby.

For example, about 10 years ago I needed grease for the Vega steering box in my street rod. GM dealers had long ago sold out of the grease specified for steering boxes. So I called Shell Oil and spoke with a lubrication engineer and gave him the SAE specification of the GM product I was trying to match. He matched it to a Shell Oil grease and even sent me a container of it at no charge as a "sample". I've had other similar experience with various automotive products.

Those lubrication engineers are gear heads themselves and want to help. So again my question is why rely on amateur opinions when qualified engineers are standing by to help?

Ray W



 
Keith_Knox 
Moderator and "15th Year" Gold Supporting Member
Posts: 5562
Keith_Knox
Age: 75
Loc: Napa, Ca USA
Reg: 04-02-00
01-13-17 11:38 PM - Post#2671078    
    In response to Ray P W

For information, David Hayward passed in early 2012

1948 Chevy Fleetmaster Coupe Purchased 6/2010. Stock with rebuilt 52 216 installed May 1966
1962 Ranchero Purchased 4/2017 221 V8 Automatic
1996 Chevy Monte Carlo Donated 6/16
2013 F150 Crew Cab


 
elcamino 
Dedicated Enthusiast
Posts: 5284
elcamino
Loc: Lake Superior-Michigan US...
Reg: 03-30-00
01-14-17 08:39 AM - Post#2671119    
    In response to Keith_Knox

fyi.............


  • Quote:
The Detergent Oil Myth -- The next myth to appear is that modern detergent engine oils
are bad for older engines. This one got started after World War II, when the government no longer needed all of the available detergent oil for the war effort, and detergent oil hit the market as “heavy-duty” oil.

Many pre-war cars had been driven way past their normal life, their engines were full of sludge and deposits, and the piston rings were completely worn out. Massive piston deposits were the only thing standing between merely high oil consumption and horrendous oil consumption. After a thorough purge by the new detergent oil, increased oil consumption was a possible consequence.

If detergent oils had been available to the public during the war, preventing the massive deposit buildup from occurring in the first place, this myth never would have started. Amazingly, there are still a few people today, 60 years later, who believe that they need to use non-detergent oil in their older cars. Apparently, it takes many years for an oil myth to die.

- Thanks to Bob Olree – GM Powertrain Fuels and Lubricants Group





Mike
2015 GMC Sierra Denali 6.2L (420hp) Crew Cab Standard Box 4WD
2016 Polaris RZR 900 EPS


 
2blu52 
"16th Year" Silver Supporting Member
Posts: 17948
2blu52
Age: 84
Loc: Montana
Reg: 03-12-02
01-15-17 06:46 AM - Post#2671273    
    In response to Royer

  • Royer Said:
Why is it that you feel that way about the add-on partial-flow oil filters? If you were to simply go and get an oil suction gun, you can suck most of the oil out of the canister - and if you simply have a rag handy to place the old element on as you lift it out, there isn't any mess to speak of. Dropping in a new filter element and putting the top back on is a piece of cake.

Plus, those filters are pretty much always located up on top where they're easily accessible. I always thought that beat a spin-on cartridge that you had to get at underneath the car - and wiggle it past a tie rod and hot exhaust pipe as well!

Royer


Just found this, pretty late though. But this reminds me of a time around 1950/51 when the service station I worked at got new single post hoists, wow were they nice, then came as I recall an Olds with a V-8 and a full flow filter mounted some where low. Any how the combination of hoist and filter location made it impossible or nearly so to change the filter canister while on the hoist.


"PEACE IS THAT GLORIUS MOMENT IN HISTORY WHEN EVERY ONE STANDS AROUND RELOADING"

THOMAS JEFFERSON


 




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