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Username Post: 153 vs 168 tooth starter        (Topic#171683)
Babyblue57 
Senior Member
Posts: 396
Babyblue57
Age: 41
Loc: Bs.As, Argentina
Reg: 06-09-02
10-08-07 06:58 AM - Post#1269687    

Hi, anyone knows if there is a difference between 153 and 168 starters? Starter gear teeth count? I have a starter and I cannot tell which one is or if will work with my 153 tooth flywheel.

Thanks!

<b><i>57 210 4dr post</b></i>


 

acardon 
Ultra Senior Member
Posts: 11012
acardon
Loc: DFW TEXAS
Reg: 03-25-05
10-08-07 07:17 AM - Post#1269701    
    In response to Babyblue57

A 168 tooth starter will have staggered mounting bolt holes like this.

A 153 tooth starter will have the holes in a straight line.

If it has 2 sets of mounting holes, it can be used on either flywheel/flexplate.


Don
66 Corvair (driving)
57 2dr HT (driving)
56 2dr HT (waiting to be restored)


 
Babyblue57 
Senior Member
Posts: 396
Babyblue57
Age: 41
Loc: Bs.As, Argentina
Reg: 06-09-02
10-08-07 07:27 AM - Post#1269713    
    In response to acardon

Thank you, great info. One more question. Powerglides from the mid 60s came with staggered or straight bolt pattern?

<b><i>57 210 4dr post</b></i>


 
68suburban 
Member
Posts: 15

Reg: 06-04-03
05-12-08 11:21 PM - Post#1431883    
    In response to Babyblue57

Bringing up from the dead. I was wondering how the last one bolts up to the staggared 168 tooth pattern, when it shows only inline mounting bolts?



 
raycow 
Honored Member
Posts: 27488
raycow
Loc: San Francisco, CA
Reg: 11-26-02
05-13-08 12:22 AM - Post#1431893    
    In response to Babyblue57

  • Babyblue57 Said:
Powerglides from the mid 60s came with staggered or straight bolt pattern?


Both. As a general rule, smallblocks used the 153 tooth flexplate and bigblocks the 168 tooth. However, you can run either size flexplate on either engine as long as you use the appropriate starter.

Ray


Those who choose an automatic transmission want transportation. Those who choose a manual transmission want to drive.


 
raycow 
Honored Member
Posts: 27488
raycow
Loc: San Francisco, CA
Reg: 11-26-02
05-13-08 12:37 AM - Post#1431895    
    In response to 68suburban

  • 68suburban Said:
I was wondering how the last one bolts up to the staggared 168 tooth pattern, when it shows only inline mounting bolts?


Most engines 62-up are drilled with three starter mounting holes, two inline and one offset. The outermost hole is used by both starters. 57-61 engines also have three holes, but the hole spacing on the inline holes is different, and only the 168 tooth starter will bolt up.

On the "universal" mini-starter the pairs of holes are spaced to fit the 153 tooth pattern. These starters will not work on the 57-61 engines.

I have heard, but not seen, that a few later engines have only two holes with the diagonal (168 tooth) pattern. Can anyone confirm this?

Ray



Those who choose an automatic transmission want transportation. Those who choose a manual transmission want to drive.


 
MikeB 
Ultra Senior Member
Posts: 10058
MikeB
Loc: Plano, TX
Reg: 08-28-03
05-13-08 06:24 AM - Post#1431980    
    In response to Babyblue57

Starter tooth count can be the same and work with either flywheel. On both 153T and 168T flyhweels, the tooth size and spacing is the same. That's because the 168T flywheel is 11" diameter compared to the 153T at 10.4".


1982 C10 SWB pickup: Unmolested base truck, original paint. Originally had 250 six and 3-on-the-tree
Now has 355 with Vortec heads, RamJet roller cam, LS6 beehive springs, TH350
Retired, but working part-time on 50s-70s cars & trucks.


 
DZAUTO 
Senior Member
Posts: 8486

Loc: Mustang, OK, USA
Reg: 12-25-99
05-13-08 06:42 AM - Post#1431990    
    In response to raycow

All the info above is very good, I can't add much.
Regarding the tooth spacing on the flywheel/flexplate/starte r drive, they're all the same. For example, on a stock starter, regardless of whether it is for the big (168 teeth) or small (153 teeth) flywheel, if you have to replace the starter drive, the guy at the parts store (NAPA, etc) will give you the same starter drive for either starter.
And that reminds me, something that I don't remember ever being mentioned here. If you have a flywheel (NOT flexplate) that has bad, chipped, broken or worn teeth, the ring gear on the flywheel CAN be replaced. Most every parts store has (or can get) 168 and 153 teeth ring gears. To replace the ring gear, simply drive the old one off with a hammer and some kind of a drift. Put the new one in your wife's oven (when she's not home) at about 500deg for about 30min (an oven will heat it more evenly than a torch!!!). Remove the ring gear (Please don't use your bare hands!!) from the oven and then immediately place it onto the flywheel (both sides of the ring gear are the same). Use a hammer and punch to gently tap it down until it is seated all the way around.

Also, if the ring gear on your flywheel has teeth that are bad/damaged only one one side, you can knock off the ring gear, heat it, flip it over and re-install it and save the price of a new ring gear.



 
lumpy55 
Frequent Contributor
Posts: 1899
lumpy55
Loc: Pensacola Fl
Reg: 02-17-02
05-13-08 10:17 AM - Post#1432086    
    In response to DZAUTO

I certainly learned a few things about the differences that I never knew before...thanks guys for the info.
Two other questions, so other than the bolt mounting differences there is no difference in the starters themselves between 168 vs 153....right? And are the flexplate diameters the same as the flywheel?
Again thanks for clearing up some of the mystery.

Gene
* If I agreed with you we'd both be wrong.


 
MikeB 
Ultra Senior Member
Posts: 10058
MikeB
Loc: Plano, TX
Reg: 08-28-03
05-13-08 04:46 PM - Post#1432266    
    In response to MikeB

  • MikeB Said:
That's because the 168T flywheel is 11" diameter compared to the 153T at 10.4".


Correction -- 10.4" and 11" are clutch diameters. I don't know the flywheel and flexplate diameters.

I'm amazed Tom didn't correct me.

Gene, the answers to your last questions are "yes and "yes."


1982 C10 SWB pickup: Unmolested base truck, original paint. Originally had 250 six and 3-on-the-tree
Now has 355 with Vortec heads, RamJet roller cam, LS6 beehive springs, TH350
Retired, but working part-time on 50s-70s cars & trucks.


Edited by MikeB on 05-13-08 04:46 PM. Reason for edit: No reason given.

 
DZAUTO 
Senior Member
Posts: 8486

Loc: Mustang, OK, USA
Reg: 12-25-99
05-13-08 04:49 PM - Post#1432268    
    In response to lumpy55

Beginning with the very first Chevy V8 in 1955, ALLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL LLLLL V8 flywheels and flexplates are either 14in diameter with 168 teeth, OR, 13in (actually about 12 3/4in) with 153 teeth. PERIOD. There are no other sizes. The early 168 teeth flywheels had a bolt pattern for a 10in clutch (today's replacement clutches are 10 1/2in). Then the later 168 teeth flywheels got a bolt pattern for an 11in clutch.
The 153 teeth flywheels ONLY had a bolt pattern for the 10 1/2in clutch.
From 55-62, the ONLY flywheel/flexplate was the 168 teeth version. The smaller 153 teeth flywheel was introduced in 63.
The bolt pattern for the flywheel-to-crankshaft changed in 1986, but the clutch bolt pattern remained the same. OK, soooooooooooooooooo, what is the significance of that? In 1986, Chevy engines went from a 2-piece rear main seal to a `1-piece (big O-ring) rear main seal. As a result, the hole in the center of the flywheel and the bolt pattern changed completely--------------- ------but the clutch size stayed the same. And so you still want to know what that means to you, right? What it means, is if you stick a 1986-later engine (such as a 350) into your 57 Chevy, it will all bolt up just fine, EXCEPT, for the flywheel/flexplate. You have to use one with an 86 later bolt pattern. But otherwise, your clutch, bell housing, tranny (or PG) from the 57 Chevy, or 4sp from a later car, or whatever, will bolt right up.
As a final example, lets say you run across a fantastic deal on a late-90s/early-2000 LS Chevy 350 out of a Vette, Z28, etc. And you want to stick it into your 57 Chevy and hook up a 4sp such as Muncie to it. Use an 86-later 168 teeth flywheel, 11in clutch, 57 Chevy bell housing, 57 starter and bolt the Muncie right up to it. As a starter alternative, you could use a later block mounted starter with a CAST IRON staggered bolt pattern, or, one of the late model mini starters for the 168 teeth flywheel.
An engine with heads that have the traditional Chevy exhaust port configuration (o--oo--o) will permit the use of any Ram Horn manifold or conventional type 55-57 headers.
There is at least ONE thing that Chevy got right, and that is the interchangeability of the small block design.



 
Old_Longboarder 
Deceased Member RIP Art
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Age: 68
Loc: Long Beach Ca, near Vet's...
Reg: 03-28-02
05-13-08 04:49 PM - Post#1432271    
    In response to MikeB

The bigger flywheels are better for high compression or large cubic inch engines. Other than the bolt pattern (and low torque verses high torque starters) the starters are the same.

The starter will spin the engine faster with the 153 tooth flywheel, but the starter has more "leverage" turning a 168 tooth flywheel, therefore turns the engine over with less amperage draw.

Home.., is where dog hair sticks to everything but the dog.





 
Zygmo 
Contributor
Posts: 548
Zygmo
Loc: Arkansas
Reg: 11-09-09
07-03-10 07:10 AM - Post#1939816    
    In response to MikeB

  • MikeB Said:
  • MikeB Said:
That's because the 168T flywheel is 11" diameter compared to the 153T at 10.4".


Correction -- 10.4" and 11" are clutch diameters. I don't know the flywheel and flexplate diameters.

I'm amazed Tom didn't correct me.

Gene, the answers to your last questions are "yes and "yes."



Mike...Tom was probably looking at the picture posted by No_Dice in the Topic Rear Ends!


Dean

57 Chevy 4dr Bel Air Wagon My Pix


 
beejay 
Deceased Member
Posts: 12605
beejay
Age: 82
Loc: Pflugerville, Texas
Reg: 06-01-04
07-03-10 02:49 PM - Post#1939976    
    In response to acardon

  • acardon Said:
A 168 tooth starter will have staggered mounting bolt holes like this.

A 153 tooth starter will have the holes in a straight line.

If it has 2 sets of mounting holes, it can be used on either flywheel/flexplate.




Well, the last picture is what I have, and it works on both sizes of fly wheels. I originally has a 168, but when I went to my 5-spd, I installed a 153. Just removed the starter and used different holes in the starter. It starts, and it runs.

Bruce

'56 4-door BelAir, 350, Holley 600, Eddie intake, TKO 600, CPP P/S and A arms, Sierra Gold & Adobe Beige
2010 VW Jetta S/W, 2.5, 5-cyl,6-spd auto.
'87 Elkie, 350 with 700r4 tranny B&M floor shift
http://www.picturetrail.com/beejay3/"


 
uglydukwling 
Member
Posts: 17

Reg: 03-17-03
08-02-10 06:51 AM - Post#1954326    
    In response to beejay

This seems to be where the flywheel/bellhousing expertise is, so maybe sombody here can help me.
I'm mounting a Camaro t-5 behind a 250. I have all the Camaro bits (flywheel, clutch, belhousing). The problem is that the Camaro flywheel won't fit the 250 crankshaft and the Camaro bellhousing won't clear the larger 250 flywheel.
Can the Camaro flywheel be re-drilled to fit the 250 crankshaft, or are there other reasons it still won't work?
Is there a small flywheel that will fit the 250 crank? What should I be looking for?
Is there a large bellhousing that has either an extra set of bolt holes to mount the Camaro trans upright, or enough metal to drill another set? I have several large bellhousings but none of them have metal in the right places.
I know most people just mount the t-5 leaning over, but I'd rather not if there's a practical way to mount it upright.



 
DZAUTO 
Senior Member
Posts: 8486

Loc: Mustang, OK, USA
Reg: 12-25-99
08-02-10 09:57 AM - Post#1954403    
    In response to MikeB

  • MikeB Said:

I'm amazed Tom didn't correct me.




That's because once a year I make it a policy to cut someone some slack ------------ it was your turn.
Also, flywheels/flexplates are 14in diameter (168 teeth) and 13in diameter (actually about 12 3/4in, 153 teeth).




 
f.i.57chevynut 
Frequent Contributor
Posts: 1519
f.i.57chevynut
Loc: Granada Hills, CA
Reg: 03-04-09
08-03-10 11:50 AM - Post#1955079    
    In response to uglydukwling

Your 250 must have been a truck, 168 tooth ring. The pasenger cars I've seen with 6 stick were 153 tooth flywheels. The v8 and 194-230-250 6 are the same both pattern. That's all you need. Good luck

Tom Ordway tom@57chevys.com If you don't drive it, why have it?
http://www.americantorque.com/page/0/139/


 
MikeB 
Ultra Senior Member
Posts: 10058
MikeB
Loc: Plano, TX
Reg: 08-28-03
08-03-10 02:44 PM - Post#1955193    
    In response to f.i.57chevynut

Awesome cars you have there, Tom.

(OK, Parsons, too.)


1982 C10 SWB pickup: Unmolested base truck, original paint. Originally had 250 six and 3-on-the-tree
Now has 355 with Vortec heads, RamJet roller cam, LS6 beehive springs, TH350
Retired, but working part-time on 50s-70s cars & trucks.


Edited by MikeB on 08-03-10 02:45 PM. Reason for edit: No reason given.

 
52chevybob 
Dedicated Enthusiast
Posts: 5628

Reg: 05-27-08
08-03-10 04:37 PM - Post#1955255    
    In response to MikeB

You want the bellhousing for the 250 engine. The tranny should fit to it with no problems.



 
Tommy2Fast 
Forum Newbie
Posts: 5
Tommy2Fast
Age: 44
Loc: Flatwoods, KY
Reg: 08-19-10
08-19-10 07:36 PM - Post#1963712    
    In response to 52chevybob

Ok guys i have a starter problem too. I have a 68' chevy block, I believe it is out of a truck. I made a stroker motor out of it and have a 3 speed manual tranny im going to bolt up to it but i have went through about 6 starters and i can not seem to find one that will match up with my small 153 tooth fly wheel. This particular block only has the off set bolt pattern only.
I found this starter. It says its only for a 168 tooth flywheel but it seems from the photo it also has a offset bolt pattern. I was wondering if this would work and if anyone has run into this problem as well.
http://i816.photobucket.com/albums/zz89/2fastraci n...



 
acardon 
Ultra Senior Member
Posts: 11012
acardon
Loc: DFW TEXAS
Reg: 03-25-05
08-19-10 08:08 PM - Post#1963727    
    In response to Tommy2Fast

Welcome to Chevy Talk.
  • Quote:
This particular block only has the off set bolt pattern only.



I'm afraid your only choice is a 168 tooth flywheel.

Don
66 Corvair (driving)
57 2dr HT (driving)
56 2dr HT (waiting to be restored)


 
Tommy2Fast 
Forum Newbie
Posts: 5
Tommy2Fast
Age: 44
Loc: Flatwoods, KY
Reg: 08-19-10
08-19-10 08:11 PM - Post#1963729    
    In response to acardon

well i have a 1 piece flywheel clutch. I dont know the name of it but i know the clutches and flywheel are all one unit. That bites
Is there a chance i can drill tap it?



Edited by Tommy2Fast on 08-19-10 08:11 PM. Reason for edit: No reason given.

 
Algoma56 
Contributor
Posts: 691

Loc: Sault Ste. Marie, ON, Can...
Reg: 03-14-05
08-21-10 07:19 PM - Post#1964686    
    In response to Tommy2Fast

WE had the same problem quite a few years ago, on a Saturday, when things weren't quite available as they are today. We used a long drill bit, and using the starter as a guide drilled the block for the extra bolt. removed the starter, tapped the block 3/8-16 , and installed the new starter. Worked for us.



 
Tommy2Fast 
Forum Newbie
Posts: 5
Tommy2Fast
Age: 44
Loc: Flatwoods, KY
Reg: 08-19-10
08-21-10 08:22 PM - Post#1964732    
    In response to Algoma56

Worked for me as well.



 
tonyrace13 
Forum Newbie
Posts: 1

Age: 31
Loc: sylvania,oh
Reg: 09-22-10
09-22-10 05:53 PM - Post#1979678    
    In response to Tommy2Fast

hopefuly someone can help me with this problem. i had a mid 70s block in my racecar that blew up with a 168 tooth flywheel, 3 disc racing cluth, and a 3 spd trans. just today i found a still in the crate 350 at work that nobody knew about and they gave me for $175. i ran the numbers at home and it is for a 95-99 truck. im goin to use it to try and make the last race in a week and a half. can someone tell me what i need for the flywheel and clutch. if i understand an earlier post i need a 86-later 168 tooth flywheel and 11in. clutch. any help would be appreciated. thanks



 
DZAUTO 
Senior Member
Posts: 8486

Loc: Mustang, OK, USA
Reg: 12-25-99
09-23-10 05:50 AM - Post#1979861    
    In response to tonyrace13

  • tonyrace13 Said:
hopefuly someone can help me with this problem. i had a mid 70s block in my racecar that blew up with a 168 tooth flywheel, 3 disc racing cluth, and a 3 spd trans. just today i found a still in the crate 350 at work that nobody knew about and they gave me for $175. i ran the numbers at home and it is for a 95-99 truck. im goin to use it to try and make the last race in a week and a half. can someone tell me what i need for the flywheel and clutch. if i understand an earlier post i need a 86-later 168 tooth flywheel and 11in. clutch. any help would be appreciated. thanks



Tony,
You are correct, you will need an 86-later flywheel. Here's why.
ALLLLLLLLLLLLL Chevy V8 engines up through 85 (and 90 for big blocks) had a 2-piece rear main seal. When the engines switched over to the 1-piece rear seal (86 for SB, 91 For BB), the rear flange, center hole and bolt pattern for the flywheel changed completely. You CANNOT use a flywheel on a crank for a 2-piece rear seal and vice versa. Sooooooooooooooooo, if your crate engine is in fact the later version with the 1-piece rear seal, then your choice will be a flywheel for an 86-later engine.



 
rocknrod 
Forum Newbie
Posts: 10

Loc: China Spring, TX
Reg: 04-27-15
08-19-16 10:10 AM - Post#2646586    
    In response to Babyblue57

  • Babyblue57 Said:
Hi, anyone knows if there is a difference between 153 and 168 starters? Starter gear teeth count? I have a starter and I cannot tell which one is or if will work with my 153 tooth flywheel.
Thanks!


So after all this, what starter gear teeth count is used for 153 tooth flex plate? 9?

Master Chief, US Navy, Retired
64 C10 Short bed Step Side


 
Highlander1 
"5th Year" Silver Supporting Member
Posts: 1700
Highlander1
Loc: SE North Carolina
Reg: 08-19-04
08-19-16 12:48 PM - Post#2646614    
    In response to uglydukwling

Uglyduckling:

I don't know what bolts to a L6 but the Camaro T-5 bolts straight up to regular (non Camaro/Trans Am) V8 bell housings. Do the v-8 passenger car bell housings also bolt to the L6 engines? If not, and unless there is some reason why you MUST mount the T-5 in its upright position I'd go with the 18 degree offset. I am using one in my 57 (actually a 27 degree rotation using an adaptor) and am modifying the shifter handle to retain the vertical shifter alignment.

Don



 
raycow 
Honored Member
Posts: 27488
raycow
Loc: San Francisco, CA
Reg: 11-26-02
08-19-16 07:25 PM - Post#2646687    
    In response to rocknrod

  • rocknrod Said:
So after all this, what starter gear teeth count is used for 153 tooth flex plate? 9?


This thread is 6 years old, but you have a good question. All of the OE starter pinions are the same - 9 teeth. However, this may not necessarily be true for aftermarket gear reduction starters.

Ray

Those who choose an automatic transmission want transportation. Those who choose a manual transmission want to drive.


 
raycow 
Honored Member
Posts: 27488
raycow
Loc: San Francisco, CA
Reg: 11-26-02
08-19-16 07:29 PM - Post#2646688    
    In response to Highlander1

  • Highlander1 Said:
Do the v-8 passenger car bell housings also bolt to the L6 engines?


V-8 bellhousings will bolt to 63-up inline 6 cyl engines and 62 Chevy II.

Ray

Those who choose an automatic transmission want transportation. Those who choose a manual transmission want to drive.


 

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