 Richard Martin
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05-18-12 11:15 AM - Post#2227196
Doug Marion article in July issue of SUPER CHEVY Magazine, page 16.
"Over my 35-year automotive photo-journalism career, I've mentioned many times that Chevrolet offered a four-speed transmission for 1957 Corvettes and passenger cars. I wrote about the few legit cars I've seen, as well as the original owners Ive talked to, but I never offered 'proof' because I never thought I needed to."
Marion's photo copy of Chevrolet Service News, May 1957 Volume 29, Number 5, cover page:
"The four speed synchromesh transmission, special option equipment for use in both passenger and Corvette models..."
Doug Marion claims Vince Piggins, in an interview, said to him: "To include the B-W T-10 four-speed for passenger cars on-the-quick, all we had to do was assign the same RPO number and make it a dealer installed option."
Richard
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 acardon
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05-18-12 12:30 PM - Post#2227213
In response to Richard Martin
How did you shift a 4 speed transmission in a passenger car with a bench seat? ..... Link to Corvette linkage.
Don
66 Corvair (driving)
57 2dr HT (restoring)
56 2dr HT (waiting to be restored)
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phat rat
Contributor
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05-18-12 12:41 PM - Post#2227220
In response to acardon
with a different shifter
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Richard Martin
Valued Contributor
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05-18-12 12:42 PM - Post#2227221
In response to acardon
Marion's article has a photo of a strangly bent "factory" shifter.
I'm not claiming Doug Marion's opinions or claims are true or correct. I'm just passing on the information for those who may want to read the article.
Richard
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acardon
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05-18-12 01:00 PM - Post#2227231
In response to Richard Martin
"To include the B-W T-10 four-speed for passenger cars on-the-quick, all we had to do was assign the same RPO number and make it a dealer installed option."
That was my point, the same Corvette RPO would not work in a passenger car with a bench seat.
Don
66 Corvair (driving)
57 2dr HT (restoring)
56 2dr HT (waiting to be restored)
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Richard Martin
Valued Contributor
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05-18-12 02:27 PM - Post#2227271
In response to acardon
"To include the B-W T-10 four-speed for passenger cars on-the-quick, all we had to do was assign the same RPO number and make it a dealer installed option."
That was my point, the same Corvette RPO would not work in a passenger car with a bench seat.
The 1959 full-size Chevy 4-speed transmission option is RPO 685.
The 1959 Corvette 4-speed transmission option is RPO 685.
Same RPO code for two different Chevrolets with different shifters. In my opinion your "point" is not valid.
Richard
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Rick_L
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05-18-12 02:59 PM - Post#2227288
In response to Richard Martin
It doesn't mean that the RPO code didn't have a different bill of material (manufacturing lingo) for different applications.
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DZAUTO
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05-18-12 08:26 PM - Post#2227386
In response to Richard Martin
The LAST THREE WORDS in Richard's comments is the Key ------------------- DEALER INSTALLED OPTION.
That specifically indicates that a 4sp manual tranny in a 57 Passenger car WAS NOT installed at a factory GM assembly plant.
This issue has been discussed and debated for MANY years, and the bottom line is always the same, 57 pass cars did not get a 4sp installed at the factory.
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cdmhenry
Very Senior Member
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05-20-12 10:51 AM - Post#2227865
In response to DZAUTO
Agreed. Argued to death.
There is NO evidence there was a factory 4 gear passenger car. Just another example of someone trying to "numbers matching" their made up, piece part car.
The dark side of the hobby IMO.
Not dissing anyone here, just generally, but Barrett Jackson builders.
| Every Government Interference In The Economy Consists Of Giving Unearned Benefit, Extorted By Force, To Some People At The Expense Of Others - Ayn Rand |
Edited by cdmhenry on 05-20-12 10:53 AM. Reason for edit: Maybe a little politically incorrect
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rod
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05-20-12 06:01 PM - Post#2227997
In response to cdmhenry
is it possible that the RPO # for the trans was, in fact, the same for the car and corvette, because the trans was, in fact, the same trans.
however, the shifter would have not been included under that part #. there is a very good chance that the shifter was listed as a complete unit under a different part #, and been car specific, and would have been included in a list of 'also needed' items.
you know GM, they would have listed the 4 trans to bell housing bolts, the speedo parts, the speedo tab and the hold down bolt+lock washer, the slip yoke. on and on. even though the car already had a slip yoke and/or speedo spud, or the 4 attaching bolts. and the shifter my have been listed for a pass. car as a unit under one part # and for the corvette under a different part #
your thoughts?
rod in AZ
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DZAUTO
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05-20-12 07:06 PM - Post#2228013
In response to rod
For me personally, I never cared less whether it was or was not a factory available option.
A 4sp BELONGS in a 57 Chevy, and in a 56 Chevy and in a 55 Chevy. A 2dr HT should have a 4sp, a conv should have a 4sp, a sedan delivery should have a 4sp and a 4dr wagon should have a 4sp. Heck, even my 4dr 51 Chevy has a Muncie-----------and that's the only way this old hotrodder would have it. Simple, period!
Fortunately, there are now aftermarket PLAIN collars for the steering column so that the ugly shifter knob can be eliminated.
Also, for those folks who don't want the look of a floor shifter in their 57, but would like to have a 4sp, there is an option. I know this for a fact, because I've done it in the past on two cars--------------------- ---a 54 and a 55.
On a factory 3sp car, the column shifter can be used to shift a 4sp tranny, and the required modifications are quite simple for the person who has just a minimum of ingenuity. The reverse position of a 3sp shifter becomes the 1st gear position of the 4sp, 1st becomes the 2nd gear position on the 4sp and so on. Then a push/pull handle (such as an overdrive handle) is used for engaging/disengaging reverse. TOOOOOOOOOOOO EASY!
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Richard Martin
Valued Contributor
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05-20-12 08:44 PM - Post#2228045
In response to DZAUTO
This is the Chevrolet printed May 1957 Chevrolet Service News sent to Chevy dealers that Doug Marion claims is proof 1957 Chevy passenger cars were available with the B-W 4-speed transmission:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/MAY-1957-CHEVROLE T-SERVICE...
I have no opinion...just passing on information.
Richard
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 6-bangertim
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05-21-12 12:07 AM - Post#2228068
In response to DZAUTO
BINGO TOM!!! 
I plan to go back to a column shift when I swap in a Saginaw 3.11 for the 2.20 Muncie in my Black Widow tribute car. With 255/60-15 tires on a 3.36 Posi, this trannie is not take-off friendly. The long-stick shifter doesn't even feel like a HURST - the throws are a mile long!!! 
This should go a long way in making the car more drivable in traffic. Plus, the car would look more PERIOD CORRECT.
SOOOOOOOOOO, back in the day when a "bucks-up" hot rodder / drag racer bought a 4-speed form the parts counter, how did he shift it??? Were HURST shifters available back in '57? Who made shifters prior to Hurst around that period? Or, was the Vette shifter modified to work with the bench seat.
Richard, would it be a safe bet to say that the 4-speeds were available in May of '57 from the parts counter, or was it several months later? I'll bet that dealer-sponsored cars at the strip were the first cars to get fitted, and those dealers sold the most trannies!
- Tim
Too Poor to Restore...My Nifty 150!
Proud owner of MISS NOVEMBER - 2011 Tri-Five Calender
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6-bangertim
"2nd Year" Silver Supporting Member
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05-21-12 12:28 AM - Post#2228069
In response to acardon
Just looked at the Corvette linkage link. I wonder just how far the shifter would have to come forward to clear the seat? It would be do-able to cut and drill an adaptor plate to move the shifter forward, shorten the rods. Could THAT be how the dealers did it???
Ya got me thinking...   What would '57 Vette shifter assembly, carpet plate and boot be worth, guys???
- Tim
Too Poor to Restore...My Nifty 150!
Proud owner of MISS NOVEMBER - 2011 Tri-Five Calender
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 bowtiefan
"5th Year" Silver Supporting Member
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05-21-12 07:50 AM - Post#2228166
In response to 6-bangertim
Tim
I just 'happen' to have links for the Corvette parts!
shifter w/linkage http://www.parts123.com/parts123/yb.dll?parta~dynd...
shifter
http://www.parts123.com/parts123/yb.dll?parta~dynd...
shifter plate http://www.parts123.com/parts123/yb.dll?parta~dynd...
shift pattern plate http://www.parts123.com/parts123/yb.dll?parta~dynd...
Boot http://www.parts123.com/parts123/yb.dll?parta~dynd...
Most of the aftermarket Corvette places should have all this stuff. I like Corvette Central, Zip, and Paragon, but there are several others.
Ken
38 & 39 2dr sedan, 41 coupe, 54 convertible, 56 Nomad, 57 210 2dr sdn, 70 Camaro RS, Corvettes; 57, 61, 65 396 coupe, 67 427 convert, 69 & 72 T-top, 88 coupe,91 ZR-1, 07 Z06, 07 Silverado, 09 BMW 135i convert.
http://www.picturetrail.com/ken58 |
Edited by bowtiefan on 05-21-12 07:51 AM. Reason for edit: No reason given.
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Rick_L
Honored Member
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05-21-12 07:56 AM - Post#2228168
In response to 6-bangertim
"I wonder just how far the shifter would have to come forward to clear the seat?"
Depends on whether you want the seat to remain fully adjustable.
The Hurst 4 speed shifter for 55-57s allows that, and the bend in the stick is pretty severe.
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OldDad
Senior Member
Posts: 1850
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05-21-12 10:32 AM - Post#2228215
In response to acardon
The trick in the days before the Hurst "C" shifter was to cut the front seat springs to make a shallow pocket to allow the shifter enough access back into the seat. It was fairly common for the guy's that could afford it, at least here in the Great Northwest in the late 50's early 60's. I had to stick with the 3 speed cause I couldn't afford a 4 speed plus have my seat modified. So I had to settle for those clear plastic seat protectors and a 3 speed. I bet Tom Parson's didn't have clear plastic seat covers in Oklahoma in 1960. Ha
The S.O.B. from the factory...
71 1/2 ton, 64 Chevelle SS, 57 2dr Hardtop, 57 2dr Sedan, 57 Corvette, 52 2dr Hardtop, 52 2dr Sedan, and now a 49 Plymouth Coupe |
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6-bangertim
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05-21-12 11:38 AM - Post#2228227
In response to bowtiefan
Thanks Ken!
Now I have a "plan B" if I don't like how the Sag box works out. I would then opt for a 2.88 T-10, but would avoid notching out the seat.
Take Care, Tim
Too Poor to Restore...My Nifty 150!
Proud owner of MISS NOVEMBER - 2011 Tri-Five Calender
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DZAUTO
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05-21-12 02:32 PM - Post#2228289
In response to OldDad
This is the front seat of my FACTORY 5sp Cutlass that I special ordered new in 76.
I had it notched in 87 when I replaced the original weak B-W 5sp (I had already gone through 3 of them) with a Richmond 5sp. Yes, I had the seat notched.
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fbi9c1
Frequent Contributor
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05-22-12 01:00 PM - Post#2228666
In response to DZAUTO
Are you saying that GM offered a 5-speed in 1976 in the intermediate cars?
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DZAUTO
Dedicated Enthusiast
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05-22-12 01:42 PM - Post#2228676
In response to fbi9c1
Are you saying that GM offered a 5-speed in 1976 in the intermediate cars?
Not only am I saying that, I ordered one in the spring of 76 and I still own it!
A 4sp was NO LONGER available, BUUUUUUUUUUUUT, a 3sp or a 5sp was available.
Here are pictures of the original paperwork --------------------- with my name on it, and pg18 of the owner's manual.
Any questions?
In 1976, there were 59,179 Cutlass S's built. There were 964 with a 5sp (1.6%).
There were 186,646 Cutlass Supremes, 862 got a 5sp (.46%).
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Richard Martin
Valued Contributor
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05-22-12 01:59 PM - Post#2228686
In response to fbi9c1
Are you saying that GM offered a 5-speed in 1976 in the intermediate cars?
http://www.lov2xlr8.no/brochures/olds/76oldsm /bild...
Richard
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fbi9c1
Frequent Contributor
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05-22-12 04:50 PM - Post#2228747
In response to Richard Martin
Wow! I have never seen one of those. I would have wanted one, I love Oldsmobiles. Thanks for the info, learn something new every day.
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VintageCarryall
Member
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05-22-12 06:41 PM - Post#2228779
In response to fbi9c1
Note that the 5 gear was only available behind the 260 Olds V8 in the 1976-77 Cutlass, LeMans, Omega and maybe the Pontiac X body. 455 was a factory option in the 1976 Cutlass with 3 spd AT only. I remember a 1976-77 Olds Omega 4 door fitted with the 260/5spd combo back in the Wash DC area around 1978.
1994 Dodge Caravan SWB 3.3L V6
1962 Studebaker Lark 4 door 350 Chevy/TH350
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DZAUTO
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05-22-12 07:49 PM - Post#2228799
In response to VintageCarryall
This topic is about the issue of a factory 4sp in a 57 Chevy ---------------- NOT. BUT, since we migrated to the availability of a manual tranny in an Olds Cutlass, here is some additional info.
1976 was the FIRST year for the 5sp in a Cutlass.
1976 was the LAST year for an Olds 455 (notice the 455 emblems on my Cutlass, they are from individual 4-5-4 numbers on the hood of 70-74 Corvettes with a 454).
If a 5sp was ordered, the small V8 was MANDATORY.
If a 455 was ordered, only the Turbo 400 (or HD 3sp) was available. No other tranny option.
I wanted a 442 with a 455 and a 4sp (no such animal available). I DID NOT LIKE the big wide vinyl 442 on the sides and trunk of the 76 Cutlass 442(see picture below). Soooooooooo, I ordered the Cutlass S (same body as a 442) and got the small V8 and the 5sp. By 1987, I had already gone through 3 of those puny B-W 5spds. I had already decided I was going to replace the original V8 with a built 455 and that the B-W 5sp just wasn't going to cut it. So that's why the Richmond 5sp was installed. ALLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL the parts/hardware (oil pan, front cover, water pump, ex manifolds, pulleys, dist, etc, etc, etc) on the 455 are from the original V8. The 260-307-350-400-425-455 Olds engines are the SAME block design. The Olds big block is really not a big block. To make a big block (400-425-455), Olds simply raised the cylinder decks about 1in. Other than the taller decks, Olds V8s are EXTERNALLY the same. Thus, unlike the difference between a Chevy SB and BB, an Olds 455 literally is a drop-in swap for any of the Olds small blocks (low deck blocks).
Notice on the underside of my Cutlass there is no longer a catalyic converter (first installed on GM cars in 75), and it has TRUE dual exhausts. The 73-74 Cutlass tranny cross members have the 2 humps for left and right ex pipes. So, I just located a cross member from a 74 in a salvage yard, acquired Olds dual exhaust manifolds (they are different from single ex manifolds) and installed a 73-74 factory style dual ex system (only installed on the 73-74 442). I debated long and hard about whether to install headers or cast iron manifolds. I finally went with iron factory manifolds. Thus, everything on the car (except the Richmond 5sp) is factory Olds.
AND THERE IS NO REASON OLDS COULDN'T HAVE BUILT IT THIS WAY TO BEGIN WITH!!!!!!!!!!!!!! 
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wagonman100
Super Senior Member
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05-22-12 07:52 PM - Post#2228801
In response to VintageCarryall
Not that it pertains directly to this, but my dad had a '76 Buick Skyhawk (same as a Monza) with a V6 and a 5 speed with that same shift pattern. I was just a kid, but if I remember correctly, it did not have a reverse lockout and the gates were pretty tight, so you could easily throw it into reverse by mistake and you could shift from 1st to fourth instead of 2nd, for instance. The next year they changed the shift pattern so that reverse was all the way to the right and down. As a matter of fact Tom, I notice your shift pattern on the knob differs from that in the owner's manual.
Jay
Some days it's not worth chewing through the restraints.
1999 Silverado Z71 4X4 extra-cab short bed
1983 Malibu Fauxmad - tubbed
1978 El Camino Kustomized
1972 Monte Carlo
1957 210 handyman wagon
1957 Nomad sport wagon |
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DZAUTO
Dedicated Enthusiast
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05-22-12 08:01 PM - Post#2228806
In response to wagonman100
------------------------- ------------- Tom, I notice your shift pattern on the knob differs from that in the owner's manual.
That is correct, because the 5sp in the Cutlass now is a Richmond 5sp. The ORIGINAL (piece of junk) 5sp had the shift pattern you mention (but it's still a factory 5sp car).
Oh ya, the shifter boot in the above picture looks so good because it is NOS. Several years ago I ordered 2 when they were still available from Olds parts dept.
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wagonman100
Super Senior Member
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Loc: Baltimore, MD
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05-22-12 08:07 PM - Post#2228809
In response to DZAUTO
Oops, forgot you mentioned that.  Sorry.
Jay
Some days it's not worth chewing through the restraints.
1999 Silverado Z71 4X4 extra-cab short bed
1983 Malibu Fauxmad - tubbed
1978 El Camino Kustomized
1972 Monte Carlo
1957 210 handyman wagon
1957 Nomad sport wagon |
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CJS57
Frequent Contributor
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Age: 67
Loc: New Milford , Connecticut
Reg: 01-18-05
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05-23-12 04:28 AM - Post#2228863
In response to Richard Martin
Every 57 Chevy that wants one should have a 4-speed or 5-speed floor shift! We didn't care about being factory correct back in 1962!
1957 Belair 2Dr Hdtp, 58,000 original miles, original never rebuilt 283 engine, 245hp, Dual Fours, Tremec TKO 600 5-speed, 3.70 gears, AACA Senior in 1985
previous trifives:
1955 Belair Convt
1956 210 2dr Sdn
1957 Belair 2Dr Hdtp |
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Richard Martin
Valued Contributor
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Loc: Davis Islands, Florida
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05-23-12 05:03 AM - Post#2228875
In response to CJS57
I've always been a fan of your car. Take a look at the photo of the '57 passenger car 4-speed shifter in Doug Marion's article on page 16 of the July 2012 issue of Super Chevy Magazine. Have you ever seen one?
Richard
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