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| Username | Post: Big Block or LS series motor, build or not to build? | |
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busterrm Contributor Posts 981 
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04-26-12 07:04 PM - Post#2219512
Okay, David has a friend that was very impressed with his Nova this past weekend when David and I won a match race at the drag strip. I was driving and some loud mouth shot off his mouth and I asked if he was going to put his money where his mouth was? Long story short David and I split 200 dollar profit? I put up 100 and David put up 100 and we doubled our money. Anyway, I whipped his butt by 3 car lengths at the 1/8th mile and 4-5 at the 1/4 mile mark. So the guy says I want to see this motor, David tilts the front clip forward and he freaks out. "Who built your motor?" David says, "The guy driving!" So this guy asks me, " Hey will you build me a motor?", I returned with by the hour! He has a 700 hp goal in mind, what would be the best route? Big Block Chevy or LS series motor? Oh yeah, I told him I pay for nothing, I just build and tell you what parts I need? He already has a 454 block, and my mind start churning," Bore it 30 and stroke it to 4.25 and have a 496." What do you guys suggest?
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busterrm Contributor Posts 981
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04-26-12 07:09 PM - Post#2219513
I forgot to say this is a local independent businessman that has more money than "God", so money really isn't a problem.
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CharlieC Senior Member Posts 1747 
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04-26-12 07:14 PM - Post#2219517
I have a 440 ci LS so you could say I have an opinion already. But if the guy already has a motor to use as a base, and has no EFI gear, the economics of building the BBC would be tough to beat. I didn't say it would be better...  So you typed the second comment while I entered the above. Throw the fuel drooling BBC on the scrap heap and do the LS. But if you're going to be the builder, it has to be what you know how to build. They are different... Charlie
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busterrm Contributor Posts 981
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04-26-12 07:37 PM - Post#2219525
I have a 440 ci LS so you could say I have an opinion already. But if the guy already has a motor to use as a base, and has no EFI gear, the economics of building the BBC would be tough to beat. I didn't say it would be better... So you typed the second comment while I entered the above. Throw the fuel drooling BBC on the scrap heap and do the LS. But if you're going to be the builder, it has to be what you know how to build. They are different... Charlie I have never built a LS motor, but have built a few BBCs in my day. I already sort of have a plan of action. Bore it 4.31 and stroke it 4.25 with 496 CI result, AFR 325cc heads, Crane Hydraulic Roller HR-246/400-2S-14 IG with 680 lift, ADV dur 316/324, @ 050 246/254, IVC 93.5, Range 32-6400 rpms, Crane roller rockers, bottom end is going to be all forged compenents. This is just a starting point.
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bobb Super Senior Member Posts 4627 
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04-26-12 07:40 PM - Post#2219529
mostly depends on his desires. for a road car he may want a lighter front end so the ls may be the choice there. he may want to go old school so the bbc would be the choice there. of course he could also go all alumnumum bbc $$$. better eye candy if you ask me. if money is plentiful the sky is the limit.
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busterrm Contributor Posts 981
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04-26-12 07:42 PM - Post#2219531
He also has a complete shop with all the tools I need for sure, I went by his house(his shop is out back 3 stalls and full compliment of tools)after we whipped his censored at the drag strip. Actually it sort of blew me away, he even has a lift in one stall. His race shop is about 60 X 120ft, big sonabish!
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busterrm Contributor Posts 981
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04-26-12 07:46 PM - Post#2219532
mostly depends on his desires. for a road car he may want a lighter front end so the ls may be the choice there. he may want to go old school so the bbc would be the choice there. of course he could also go all alumnumum bbc $$$. better eye candy if you ask me. if money is plentiful the sky is the limit. Actually bobb the car is strickly strip car, no street. Its a 71 Camaro SS, not sure about tranny but its manual, with 4 link rearend and 4:11 rear gear. Weight with him in it is 3000#, I don't know the size of the slicks on back.
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busterrm Contributor Posts 981
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04-26-12 07:50 PM - Post#2219536
Oh the car has a SBC 427 in it at present. I am still wondering how I beat him at the drag strip, unless the car is poorly tuned. He should have had us at a big disadvantage. I don't know maybe he missed a shift or something.
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busterrm Contributor Posts 981
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04-26-12 07:53 PM - Post#2219538
hey grumpy where would I put this on your site?
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Rick_L Honored Member Posts 24741 |
04-26-12 08:25 PM - Post#2219550
If he wants 700 hp, he needs a big inch BBC, like a 565 or 582. And it needs the proper choice of cylinder heads and other components. And if you have to ask how to build it, he needs a different engine builder. |
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greg_moreira Very Senior Member Posts 3262 |
04-26-12 09:23 PM - Post#2219563
Okay, David has a friend that was very impressed with his Nova this past weekend when David and I won a match race at the drag strip. I was driving and some loud mouth shot off his mouth and I asked if he was going to put his money where his mouth was? Long story short David and I split 200 dollar profit? I put up 100 and David put up 100 and we doubled our money. Anyway, I whipped his butt by 3 car lengths at the 1/8th mile and 4-5 at the 1/4 mile mark. So the guy says I want to see this motor, David tilts the front clip forward and he freaks out. "Who built your motor?" David says, "The guy driving!" So this guy asks me, " Hey will you build me a motor?", I returned with by the hour! He has a 700 hp goal in mind, what would be the best route? Big Block Chevy or LS series motor? Oh yeah, I told him I pay for nothing, I just build and tell you what parts I need? He already has a 454 block, and my mind start churning," Bore it 30 and stroke it to 4.25 and have a 496." What do you guys suggest? Id do the big block personally. I definitely am drawn to the potential of the LS, and know it could do it, but when it comes to a specific goal on somebody elses dime.....I'd want something more familiar. Also unless he is totally against the idea of maintenance, Id be going solid roller for a strip only car. The hydraulic roller can definitely do it. I dont know if you saw the 502 that Foxwell and Straub teamed up on for Daveys car, but with Scotts ported AFR's and a straub hydraulic roller the 502 made well over 700 horsepower and has Daveys 3700lb car well into the 9's. But this was not a simple combo of off the shelf parts. It was good cylinder head work on an already very good head with a custom hydraulic roller. Most of us using off the shelf parts would probably fall a good hundred horsepower short. A solid roller will make life easier to meet that goal. You dont have to be as careful in balancing valvetrain weight and spring pressure to keep a hydraulic roller happy at high rpm. Again totally doable....but it takes a concentrated effort when you start pushing the envelop. We've been rpm'ing solid rollers for years, which points to the simplicity in making it work. If it were me... Id use what he has. 496 incher. 11:1 comp, afr 315 full CNC heads, a cleaned up vic junior intake, 1000hp carb, 2 inch headers, and about a 260/268 at .050 solid roller with .700/.700 lift. That'll just about make 700 even. It'll run low 10's in anything, and in a well prepped car with the right converter I could see it running a 9.8X o 9.9X. |
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busterrm Contributor Posts 981
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04-26-12 09:58 PM - Post#2219568
If he wants 700 hp, he needs a big inch BBC, like a 565 or 582. And it needs the proper choice of cylinder heads and other components. And if you have to ask how to build it, he needs a different engine builder. I have built a few big blocks, but its been over 10 yrs since the last one. It was a 475-500 hp build, I just haven't built one with that goal in mind. Oh yeah the ones I did build are still out there on the streets, not everday, but still out there.
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busterrm Contributor Posts 981
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04-26-12 10:04 PM - Post#2219570
Okay, David has a friend that was very impressed with his Nova this past weekend when David and I won a match race at the drag strip. I was driving and some loud mouth shot off his mouth and I asked if he was going to put his money where his mouth was? Long story short David and I split 200 dollar profit? I put up 100 and David put up 100 and we doubled our money. Anyway, I whipped his butt by 3 car lengths at the 1/8th mile and 4-5 at the 1/4 mile mark. So the guy says I want to see this motor, David tilts the front clip forward and he freaks out. "Who built your motor?" David says, "The guy driving!" So this guy asks me, " Hey will you build me a motor?", I returned with by the hour! He has a 700 hp goal in mind, what would be the best route? Big Block Chevy or LS series motor? Oh yeah, I told him I pay for nothing, I just build and tell you what parts I need? He already has a 454 block, and my mind start churning," Bore it 30 and stroke it to 4.25 and have a 496." What do you guys suggest? Id do the big block personally. I definitely am drawn to the potential of the LS, and know it could do it, but when it comes to a specific goal on somebody elses dime.....I'd want something more familiar. Also unless he is totally against the idea of maintenance, Id be going solid roller for a strip only car. The hydraulic roller can definitely do it. I dont know if you saw the 502 that Foxwell and Straub teamed up on for Daveys car, but with Scotts ported AFR's and a straub hydraulic roller the 502 made well over 700 horsepower and has Daveys 3700lb car well into the 9's. But this was not a simple combo of off the shelf parts. It was good cylinder head work on an already very good head with a custom hydraulic roller. Most of us using off the shelf parts would probably fall a good hundred horsepower short. A solid roller will make life easier to meet that goal. You dont have to be as careful in balancing valvetrain weight and spring pressure to keep a hydraulic roller happy at high rpm. Again totally doable....but it takes a concentrated effort when you start pushing the envelop. We've been rpm'ing solid rollers for years, which points to the simplicity in making it work. If it were me... Id use what he has. 496 incher. 11:1 comp, afr 315 full CNC heads, a cleaned up vic junior intake, 1000hp carb, 2 inch headers, and about a 260/268 at .050 solid roller with .700/.700 lift. That'll just about make 700 even. It'll run low 10's in anything, and in a well prepped car with the right converter I could see it running a 9.8X o 9.9X. Here is a solid roller I have been looking at also: http://www.cranecams.com/product/cart.php?m=produc... Only thing is this one has a lower Duration at 050 246/256
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busterrm Contributor Posts 981
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04-26-12 10:51 PM - Post#2219579
I agree Greg, I was thinking 11:1 min compression, I was going to be looking tomorrow for rotating assemblies. Ohio crank has billet cranks that look awful tempting, going with a 4.375 stroke is same price and that would up the size to 510 ci. Heads are going to be between AFR and World Merlin III I am thinking. I also agree on the intake, it needs to be a Victor Jr cleaned up and good porting. You think 1000 would be enough, I was thinking 1100 to carry 700 lift? I know the block is gonna need decking, line honed, cam tunnel cleaned up, magnafluxing, sonic testing the bores, shot peened, etc etc.....
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triplefive Contributor Posts 653 
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04-27-12 02:15 AM - Post#2219588
..........And if you have to ask how to build it, he needs a different engine builder. Don't really agree with that, Rick. Everyone, even the best engine builder in the country, had zero experience once. I'd much prefer to get someone who takes care and time and isn't above asking for advice and opinions to build me something, than someone who 'knows everything'. Once someone believes there isn't anything left for them to learn, stay well clear of them I say. All IMHO, of course but then, I've been wrong before. Mike.
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motorman Super Senior Member Posts 5024 |
04-27-12 06:44 AM - Post#2219626
if you want 700+ HP here it is. http://www.summitracing.com/parts/NAL-19201334/
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capricesport66 "3rd Year" Gold Supporting Member Posts 1208 
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04-27-12 06:53 AM - Post#2219629
700+ strip car. BBC all the way. Rectangle ports 345cc heads, big camshaft, big stall, good tranny. 700hp would be a walk in the park. With the right setup and right compression ratio, you're getting closer to the 800hp range. If it's a strictly strip car, I'd look @ 14:1 CR and solid roller setup.
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Rick_L Honored Member Posts 24741 |
04-27-12 11:02 AM - Post#2219693
"Everyone, even the best engine builder in the country, had zero experience once." You get what you pay for. You shouldn't have to pay a zero experience engine builder. There are so many parts available for these things, it takes parts that work together, and many need modification. Experience is worth something. I'm not say a that one shouldn't try to become an engine builder. It's just that you either need to gain experience by doing your own stuff or by working in a shop and learning from a pro. |
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busterrm Contributor Posts 981
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04-27-12 07:31 PM - Post#2219817
So Rick, what your saying is that building engines since I was 12 years old doesn't mean anything. I learned from a pro, My Dad. Yes, I still have questions, but even the best minds of today will tell you when you stop asking questions there is something majorly wrong. And Yes, I am more a small block builder, but I do have experience with big blocks just not as much as small blocks. The guy that wants the motor built knows I am not a "Pro" at big blocks, actually He and I are both going to build the motor. I have made a list of books that is in several of Grumpy's posts and we will both learn together. Jim just wants to know how a lil ole small block 385 beat his 427 big block crate motor. Oh BTW the comment about building by the hour was joke anyway. Jim and I haven't agreed on my compensation for the build yet.
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bobb Super Senior Member Posts 4627
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04-27-12 08:38 PM - Post#2219835
well since he wants to know how the sbc beat him, maybe you could take a shot at tuning his bbc. just to see if its all it can be. he will learn stuff too. it could be an interesting science project.
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geoaoday Forum Newbie Posts 42 |
04-27-12 09:31 PM - Post#2219845
I'm with motorman, go for the GM crate engine. GM has built millions of engines ... all with warranties. You just can't beat that. |
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busterrm Contributor Posts 981
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04-27-12 09:39 PM - Post#2219846
well since he wants to know how the sbc beat him, maybe you could take a shot at tuning his bbc. just to see if its all it can be. he will learn stuff too. it could be an interesting science project. I agree with that bobb, I will talk to him tomorrow after work and take a look at his motor. I know one thing it is under carbed to start out by at least 100 cfm. At 6500 a 427 should need at least a 850cfm carb and he is running a 725cfm carb.
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bobb Super Senior Member Posts 4627
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04-28-12 12:28 AM - Post#2219858
then you also know that one thing leads to another. i would start with whatever suppossed specs that he has and go from there. square one, estimate or certify cam timing. and so on. who knows, he may be a half second off the mark just by tweekin it. have fun with it.
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busterrm Contributor Posts 981
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04-28-12 11:30 AM - Post#2219970
Yeah, I talked to him today and took a look at it. I know his initial timing is off, mech adv is off too. He is only getting total 28 degrees of advance. I asked him to get a list of all the components of the motor in the car as of now. I think his valves are preloaded too much cuz he's only making about 6in of vac at idle. I will know more when I get a list of heads, cam, valve spring pressures. I do see he is running good oil pressure at 39-42 at idle and increases with rpms, it runs cool at about 185-90 on his temp gauge. I will know more later.
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busterrm Contributor Posts 981
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04-28-12 12:15 PM - Post#2219983
I honestly think from what I saw today that his 427 can be tuned and end up with a kickin motor. I am not sure, but I think this motor is getting tired too, don't know how old the motor is, I will ask that question too. Might just need a freshening and tune it some and maybe a cam and carb change and have a kick butt combo. Just gonna have to take a long look at it and its components.
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mokicruz Senior Member Posts 815 
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04-28-12 01:54 PM - Post#2220002
Well said Rick . Some people assemble parts others build engines with knowledge and ability making extreme power for many hours. If you can't say how long it will last or the horse power and torque you'll have then work your way up under some one with experience with modern engines to gain the practical experience you need. Starting at the top then failing at your goal will hurt your chances as a builder. There are stock LS engines running Carbs and Nitous blowing away some serious high cubed engines be open minded how to reach the intended end product. |
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grumpyvette Senior Chevytalk Moderator -- Performance Subject Matter Expert -- Posts 15639 
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04-28-12 02:25 PM - Post#2220008
.... I know one thing it is under carbed to start out by at least 100 cfm. At 6500 a 427 should need at least a 850cfm carb and he is running a 725cfm carb. this a very common misconception 4 barrel carbs are flow rated at 1.5" of mercury vacuum (roughly equal to 28" of water) if you increase the vacuum the carb flows more air, a 750cfm car can easily flow 850cfm or even 900cfm on a significantly larger engine with a stronger vacuum, now IM not saying a larger carb might not flow more fuel/air and make more power but the rated flow is not locked in stone, and it works the other way also, if you install two 600cfm carbs on a 427 you cut the vacuum in the plenum roughly in half so neither carb flows near 600cfm, you might get 470cfm each http://users.erols.com/srweiss/calcdchg.htm
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busterrm Contributor Posts 981
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04-28-12 05:51 PM - Post#2220054
.... I know one thing it is under carbed to start out by at least 100 cfm. At 6500 a 427 should need at least a 850cfm carb and he is running a 725cfm carb. this a very common misconception 4 barrel carbs are flow rated at 1.5" of mercury vacuum (roughly equal to 28" of water) if you increase the vacuum the carb flows more air, a 750cfm car can easily flow 850cfm or even 900cfm on a significantly larger engine with a stronger vacuum, now IM not saying a larger carb might not flow more fuel/air and make more power but the rated flow is not locked in stone, and it works the other way also, if you install two 600cfm carbs on a 427 you cut the vacuum in the plenum roughly in half so neither carb flows near 600cfm, you might get 470cfm each http://users.erols.com/srweiss/calcdchg.htm Okay, I have some specs on the current BBC in his car: Bore: 4.31 Stroke: 4.00 Scat forged CI: 467 Pistons are forged with dome 25cc(he doesn't know what brand or dome size) Old Edelbrock Torker intake Demon 725 carb Heads are OEM casting 3873858 109 cc, 219/188 valves Crane Hyd Roller - HR-236/359-2S-14 IG Duration 050 236/244 Lift 610/632 LSA 112 IVC 82 The car is 73 Camaro, 3000lb with driver, M21 manual tranny, 4 link with 4.11 rear gear. Tire is 15 street slick 30in diameter(tire is a guess on my part from what I saw at his shop).
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busterrm Contributor Posts 981
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04-28-12 05:58 PM - Post#2220060
This is what I see! 1.Heads are old technology 2.Cubes are a little small but still good size 3.Intake old technology again 4.Carb possibly not large enough 5.Cam is not for strickly strip car, good cam for street, but he needs a solid roller with narrower LSA, more duration, more lift. Okay guys critique me on this?
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busterrm Contributor Posts 981
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04-28-12 07:43 PM - Post#2220091
this is my thoughts: Cam http://www.lunatipower.com/Product.aspx?id=2162&am... Heads(flow about 340 full lift of the cam above) http://www.jegs.com/i/Dart/301/19100112/1 0002/-1?p... Forged Pistons http://www.jegs.com/i/SRP/867/139832/1000 2/-1?pare... Carb (cfm to spin up to 7000) http://www.jegs.com/i/Holley/510/0-80509- 1/10002/-... Intake http://www.jegs.com/i/Edelbrock/350/2896/ 10002/-1?... this is just preliminary parts list. I did the figures, this should yeild 11.55 static, 9.09 dynamic in compression ratios. remember this is not a street car, strickly strip only. He will be running racing fuel only.
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busterrm Contributor Posts 981
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04-28-12 09:54 PM - Post#2220117
I am thinking with the current engine combo he might be making 550-575 hp. But that is properly tuned, from what is evident its not tuned very well at all.
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Rick_L Honored Member Posts 24741 |
04-29-12 01:13 PM - Post#2220290
Buster, read your post again. You've been building engines since you were 12, but you need books to build a big block? What I'm talking about here is experience with peformance big blocks. Choosing heads and components that work with them, and knowing where to look for trouble or small details. Of course now is the time to start learning. But don't try to fool your customer. |
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busterrm Contributor Posts 981
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04-29-12 03:00 PM - Post#2220322
I am not trying to fool him, he knows I am more of a small block builder. He is going to be there most of the way and will be learning also. This is not one of those where I build it and give it to him. We will be building it in his race shop. Hey I am in it for the learning situation, maybe not as much as him but still I will learn. I still use books and other guys suggestions with the small blocks, not anything different there. I am still hesitant to build the 496 anyway, I have been talking to him last few days about getting the 427(467) into shape instead.
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greg_moreira Very Senior Member Posts 3262 |
04-30-12 07:57 PM - Post#2220915
Given that its 467 inches now=, and given how rough the tune is.... here is what Id do. Its a different approach than what I previously had now that I know the details. Keep in mind any of this stuff can be re used if he still wants to go bigger. Id buy a GOOD set of lifters. With over .600 lift, it needs em, and probably doesnt have them. Morel 4603, which cost 569 and up a set. Buy valve springs. Isky 9005 plus(not the regular, but the plus). Its a good, super clean wire endurance spring. Set em up at 1.9 installed height or very close to it. With the factory rectangles, the current installed height ought to be round 1.94. Isky sells a .045 locator that will put you just a fraction under 1.9 which is just fine. If this motor stays relatively the same.....use a performer rpm intake. The carb you like would work well. No....this will not make 700 horsepower. But with his combo of parts, and given how far off the tuneup is... it probably isnt even making 500. With a good tuneup and better valvetrain along with that holley carb and better intake.....it should make a solid 560 plus and rpm 600 or so rpm higher than it does now. More torque, a few hundred more rpm, and another hundred horsepower(which I beleive is easy if the tune is that far off) should really make this dude happy. If he still wants more....you arent out any money. Id add a 4.25 crank, give it a stuffer bump stick and think about better heads. If he wants heads for this motor....brodix race rite ovals or afr 290s. |
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busterrm Contributor Posts 981
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04-30-12 08:48 PM - Post#2220928
Well Greg, the reason I was wanting the dart heads is that I looked at all the flow numbers and the Dart Pro 1 alum heads flow best at the lift of the Lunati Solid roller. The rpm range is up around 7000 where I think it will need to be to acheive the 700 hp goal. This is not a street engine its a strip car only. That is why I chose a single plane Victor Jr. The car is a stick, I tried to tell him a good auto would work better. Okay I see why you said AFR 290 oval ports, they flow even better than the Darts, I just looked at them. I had not looked at those heads yet, wow those would work, there spring package is a real good one too. I got back a little while ago, and we straightened out his timing, he's running about 15 intial, that up to from 10, so you can imagine his total is up also, at 3k it was 33-34. I still think it needs more initial, maybe 16 or 17 that should put his total more acceptable than 28 total like it was.
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leon phelps Valued Contributor Posts 3020 
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05-06-12 11:30 AM - Post#2223117
I read an article that said and ls engine with the ebay cheapo turbo kits make 1k hp and the article tested them with 40 passes and they didnt explode. I think the article said the engine they used was a 4.6l. considering they have sleeves that go up to 6l, you could make more hp for way cheaper. not sure if this has to be a rebuild to get paid, but why not put an ls into it with a turbo for 1/3 of the price and see how it rolls. worse case, you would learn the ins and outs of an ls swap. it is the future of course.
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BBtech Forum Newbie Posts 32 |
05-06-12 03:14 PM - Post#2223184
No way in hell would I choose that BB idea over the LS engine. Leave the Dinosaur idea for some other sucker. Build that LS motor and have fun. |
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gchemist Senior Chevytalk Moderator Posts 20830 
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05-07-12 05:34 PM - Post#2223554
How to carb an LS motor!! http://www.aera.org/ep/downloads/ep10/EP0 4-2010_10...
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BBtech Forum Newbie Posts 32 |
05-13-12 02:05 PM - Post#2225506
The current GM performance catalog has manifolds and ignition box controlers for this LS motor. Aftermarket, go to Edelbrock for friendly service and quality components. The LS motor is getting all the attention these days and for the best reasons. The BB has seen it's best developement days and is living on past performances. It's over 50 years old! I have a new 502 block in storage if you need one. $1200. Chicago area. |
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