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Username Post: A education on Spark Plugs
technitom
Contributor
Posts 248
technitom
02-19-12 03:42 PM - Post#2192552    

OK, first off I never have bought into the hype of those high dollar spark plugs...

On GM products I've always run AC Delco R type plugs... Now, just talking about AC Delco here..

what is the REAL difference between copper core, iridium, platinum, and rapidfire platinum plugs?

is one really any better than the other?

I kinda understand how plugs/coils and plugs/engine size/CR/ works, but I am curious...

should I first try to match a plug to the ignition source and plug wires, then adjust hotter/cooler for CR...

for example, I have a 77 GM HEI... for that year, most V8's call for a r44t or r45ts

but my engine is a 1984 bored out 305 with factory heads and the stock plug for it calls for a R43ts...

I plan to pull the plugs in there now and read them, as soon as I get a warm enough day. but I wanted to just understand the "science" behind the different plugs
awsum55
Senior Member
Posts 8838
awsum55
02-19-12 06:36 PM - Post#2192652    

FWIW, I was having plug fouling problems when I first installed my ZZ3 w/edelbrock carb. I changed to platinum plugs and they haven't fouled since. I know this sounds like crap, but it did work. I don't have the answer why, but I'm a believer now.
Five things that you cannot recover in life:

* The Stone after it's thrown
* The Word after it's said
* An Occasion after it's missed
* The Time after it's gone
* A person after they die

Allan In NE
Frequent Contributor
Posts 1554
02-20-12 09:25 AM - Post#2192891    

It's all smoke and mirrors designed totally to separate you from your money.

That engine doesn't give one hoot in a hailstorm where the spark originates.

Allan
Lifelong GM automatic transmission specialist

MikeB
Senior Member
Posts 9475
MikeB
02-20-12 10:03 AM - Post#2192906    

Precious metal electrodes (iridium and platinum) last longer, so will maintain the proper gap for a much longer time. They have allowed new car mfrs to extend plug change recommendations to 100K miles. If platinum-tipped plugs cured a fouling problem, it's probably because they were a slightly hotter heat range.

I'm not sure what, if anything, copper core and Rapid Fire plugs do that other plugs can't. I guess a copper core could reduce resistance, allowing more spark current, but who knows if the performance increase is even measurable?
Real Hot Rods have a Clutch!

1955 210 2dr: 327, Brodix IK180 heads, Jones cam, M20, Wilwood front brakes

1982 C-10 SWB pickup, 250 six, 3-speed

My car pictures


technitom
Contributor
Posts 248
technitom
02-20-12 10:49 AM - Post#2192934    

Another thing...

I have always had good luck with AC Delco in GM vehicles.

As a young fella I was told the rule of thumb was that Champions work best in Chryslers/Dodge, Motorcraft in Fords, AC Delco in GMs....

Any REAL truth to that?

What about all these other brands out there? I realize a lot of them are junk, with BS claims to fame, but what about some of the others?

NGK? (I aways ran those in dirtbikes with good performance)
Autolite?

what is the best brand for GMs? I'm sure there are going to be different opinions, but I'd like to see what the general consensus is?


Unlike many others out there in the world, I try to keep an open mind... A closed mind fosters ignorance and intolerance...

Words are a lot like toothpaste... Once its out of the tube,
there's no getting it back in...

grumpyvette
Senior Chevytalk Moderator -- Performance Subject Matter Expert --
Posts 16177
grumpyvette
02-20-12 12:48 PM - Post#2192991    

  • MikeB Said:
Precious metal electrodes (iridium and platinum) last longer, so will maintain the proper gap for a much longer time. They have allowed new car mfrs to extend plug change recommendations to 100K miles. If platinum-tipped plugs cured a fouling problem, it's probably because they were a slightly hotter heat range.

I'm not sure what, if anything, copper core and Rapid Fire plugs do that other plugs can't. I guess a copper core could reduce resistance, allowing more spark current, but who knows if the performance increase is even measurable?





great response MIKEB and right to the point!


heres related info
http://forum.grumpysperformance.com/viewtopic.php?...

http://forum.grumpysperformance.com/viewtopic.php?...
" " IF YOU CAN'T SMOKE THE TIRES FROM A 60 MPH ROLLING START YOUR ENGINE NEEDS MORE WORK !"

MikeB
Senior Member
Posts 9475
MikeB
02-20-12 01:26 PM - Post#2193008    

  • technitom Said:

As a young fella I was told the rule of thumb was that Champions work best in Chryslers/Dodge, Motorcraft in Fords, AC Delco in GMs....

Any REAL truth to that?

NGK? (I always ran those in dirtbikes with good performance)
Autolite?




The only thing about running the exact plug specified by the mfr is that a cross-reference from AC to Champion, for example, might get you a slightly different heat range. Back in the day, I ran Champion J-10 and J-12 in my Chevy V-8s. As I recall they were roughly the same heat range as AC 44 and 45, but probably not exactly the same. Did that matter? I doubt it unless the engine was on the ragged edge of fouling or pre-ignition.

Regarding NGK, I too used them in 2-stroke dirt bikes in the 70s-90s. As I recall, they were the first plug I ever saw that used a platinum center electrode.

For what it's worth I have been using Bosch and NGK platinum plugs in my project car and truck for around 15 years now. Neither vehicle gets driven more than 1,000 miles/year, so platinum is probably overkill for me. But it's nice that they rarely need to be re-gapped.
Real Hot Rods have a Clutch!

1955 210 2dr: 327, Brodix IK180 heads, Jones cam, M20, Wilwood front brakes

1982 C-10 SWB pickup, 250 six, 3-speed

My car pictures


sedandelivery55
"8th Year" Gold Supporting Member
Posts 2735
sedandelivery55
02-20-12 10:06 PM - Post#2193210    

I've stuck with the AC/Delco plugs in my Chevy and GM's the day I tried Bosch plugs. I put a set of the Bosch platinums in once and took them back out the same day, the car wouldn't even run straight, like it was missing on at least one or two cylinders. I tried regapping and moving the plugs to different cylinders and it had no effect. I put the original AC 44's back in after cleaning them and ran them for another 5000 miles.
Lee

http://www.picturetrail.com

Coming soon! Big block/three pedal 70 Nova

92 GMC Sierra short/stepside
4.3 V6, 5 speed




technitom
Contributor
Posts 248
technitom
02-21-12 05:12 PM - Post#2193524    

I heard similar about Bosch...

Lately I only get a few minutes here and there to tinker, I changed the cap and rotor today... they were toasty... After 3500 miles, I dunno, maybe he reused the cap and rotor after build?
It looked like the PO was using the black center electrode instead of the brass, probably because MSD recommends doing that with a factory GM ignition module...
not sure if the coil is factory GM or aftermaket. I didnt see any brand name on it, just some numbers white stamped on it... I am headed out to the garage to grab the old one and post some pics.

maybe someone will see something unusual or make a suggestion

Words are a lot like toothpaste... Once its out of the tube,
there's no getting it back in...

C10 Sleeper
Valued Contributor
Posts 3426
C10 Sleeper
02-21-12 05:34 PM - Post#2193539    

I don't think I've ever tried Bosch plugs but I have used AC delco, autolite and champions in both fords and Chevy with no noticeable difference. When I was a kid riding dirtbikes I always used NGK. When I buy plugs for Chevy projects I have stuck with the delco 44 and 45 plugs for the last 8 or so years. I like to use what works for me and I haven't had any problems with any spark plugs that I didn't create on my own. Just for the fun of it I did order a set of e3 plugs so I can say they are junk and know it because I tried them not just because I am a moron that can't accept changes like some of us have been told in the past.
http://photobucket.com/C10Pictures

technitom
Contributor
Posts 248
technitom
02-21-12 05:37 PM - Post#2193540    











That much carbon and scoring just doesn't look right to me for 3500 miles... maybe he reused it? what do you guys think?


Words are a lot like toothpaste... Once its out of the tube,
there's no getting it back in...

technitom
Contributor
Posts 248
technitom
02-21-12 05:51 PM - Post#2193546    

Oh yeah, a quick shout out to grumpyvette, Thanks for the links! a ton of info that I'm still trying to wrap my head around...

I cant wait to pull the plugs, I already made the board with the numbered holes, I'll post pics and let you guys pick those plugs apart.


BTW
Does anyone object to using ACCEL plug wires?

8.8mm graphite suppression; silicone spark plug boots; 550 degree double silicone construction; fiberglass braid; carbon/graphite core; magnetic suppression; fiberglass/kevlar core; 500 ohms resistance...

or is that a waste of $ too?


Words are a lot like toothpaste... Once its out of the tube,
there's no getting it back in...

MikeB
Senior Member
Posts 9475
MikeB
02-21-12 07:45 PM - Post#2193604    

  • technitom Said:

BTW
Does anyone object to using ACCEL plug wires?

8.8mm graphite suppression; silicone spark plug boots; 550 degree double silicone construction; fiberglass braid; carbon/graphite core; magnetic suppression; fiberglass/kevlar core; 500 ohms resistance...
or is that a waste of $ too?


I would recommend wires with a spiral-wound steel conductor, like MSD and Taylor, over the Accels.

On the other hand, I did use a set of ready-made carbon/graphite Bosch wires in my pickup. They cost $30-something at AutoZone and work just fine. However, it doesn't seem like any manufacturer can get all the lengths perfect, even for a stock engine.




Real Hot Rods have a Clutch!

1955 210 2dr: 327, Brodix IK180 heads, Jones cam, M20, Wilwood front brakes

1982 C-10 SWB pickup, 250 six, 3-speed

My car pictures


fritz1990
Senior Member
Posts 6399
fritz1990
02-21-12 07:56 PM - Post#2193607    

Taylor spiral wound for me!

I run AC plugs in all my stuff, even the coal burners get AC plugs...............60G's

Regards, Jeff
1998 K1500 6.5 Coal burner
1965 C10 with 498 BBC AFR Heads
1964 C10 Ran 348W for 6 years, now SBC.

Corvettes owned: '74 '77 '78 L82 Silver Anniversary, 2002 LS1

Don't have a nervous come together!

http://picasaweb.google.com/fritz199090

busterrm
Frequent Contributor
Posts 1073
busterrm
02-21-12 08:35 PM - Post#2193623    

Wire:Use something that is spiral wound. Probably best to get the ones that you have to cut and crimp in order to get a accurate length on each wire. Mine are sprial wound Taylor and they work well.
Plugs: I use the Accel Copper Core plugs and I have no problems with them whatsoever. You can also get them in the shorter header length.
==== BOB ====
If I can't smoke the tires I want more!

1976 Chevy Nova
2007 Chevy 1500 1/2 ton
2008 Harley Davidson XL1200 Sportster

N8sToolz
Very Senior Member
Posts 2315
N8sToolz
02-22-12 08:50 PM - Post#2194063    

Talking from a stock point of view here.
I am a believer in running A/C's in GM, Autolite in Ford and Champions in Chryslers. On more than one occasion a misfire I have traced back to the plugs. Even shortly after a 'tune up'. I didn't believe it until I actually had a comeback for a misfire shortly after a tune up and I had used the 'wrong' brand plugs. So as far as I am concerned that's I roll in the stock world.

Also for some reason Honda's love to foul plugs to the point they don't start. They get NGK's as do toyotas and subarus.

1982 Chevy K20 Converted from C20.
355/700R4
2002 Yamaha XVS1100CL VStar
2002 S10 2WD

models916
Valued Contributor
Posts 2955
02-23-12 12:01 PM - Post#2194245    

Old Fords. Autolite, newer Fords, Motorcraft. Autolite of today is owned by the Fram Group of companies.
technitom
Contributor
Posts 248
technitom
02-23-12 04:08 PM - Post#2194353    

OK Here's the plugs in order 1-8... They all smelled like fuel. Cylinders 1-6 had R45TS plugs and for some reason #7 & #8 had R44T plugs

















I know it was running rich, and looking at grumpyvette's guide the plugs, these look too cold or too rich, I'm thinking fuel fouled... and the gap looks too narrow...

What do you guys think?

Words are a lot like toothpaste... Once its out of the tube,
there's no getting it back in...

technitom
Contributor
Posts 248
technitom
02-23-12 05:22 PM - Post#2194387    

I also noticed went back out and checked the gaps... they were anywhere from .038 to .040

Words are a lot like toothpaste... Once its out of the tube,
there's no getting it back in...

C10 Sleeper
Valued Contributor
Posts 3426
C10 Sleeper
02-23-12 06:31 PM - Post#2194412    

I gap mine at .040 with a HEI. I think the specs say .045.
http://photobucket.com/C10Pictures

technitom
Contributor
Posts 248
technitom
02-23-12 07:15 PM - Post#2194430    

Well, just got done installing the new plugs...
I decided to go with the AC Delco R45TS gapped at a slightly fat .045 WITH a light coat of anti-seize on the threads <- see I was listening grumpy

while I had all the plugs out I turned the motor over by hand and located TDC... I went ahead and marked the damper where the "aftermarket" timing pin pointed (this one is between the water pump and power steering pump, NOT directly beneath the water pump) I may try to find a timing tape, but one of the guys on the forum suggested setting timing with a vacuum gauge. I've never done it that way before, but I'll give it a go! I picked up a vacuum gauge while I was out today(any excuse to buy a new tool right?)

Does anyone have a good procedure for setting timing with a vacuum gauge?

Then after that I have to properly set the Edelbrock 1405. I read somewhere one of the guys set his carb with a vacuum gauge as well.

Does anyone have a good procedure for adjusting a 1405 with a vacuum gauge?

Words are a lot like toothpaste... Once its out of the tube,
there's no getting it back in...

jigger1166
Forum Newbie
Posts 2
jigger1166
02-23-12 07:39 PM - Post#2194447    

Just so you guys know. AC Delco plugs are made by NGK.
grumpyvette
Senior Chevytalk Moderator -- Performance Subject Matter Expert --
Posts 16177
grumpyvette
02-24-12 11:42 AM - Post#2194702    

IVE posted extensive links with detailed info on those questions, these links might be helpful

http://forum.grumpysperformance.com/viewtopic.php?...

http://forum.grumpysperformance.com/viewtopic.php?...

http://forum.grumpysperformance.com/viewtopic.php?...

http://forum.grumpysperformance.com/viewtopic.php?...
" " IF YOU CAN'T SMOKE THE TIRES FROM A 60 MPH ROLLING START YOUR ENGINE NEEDS MORE WORK !"

technitom
Contributor
Posts 248
technitom
02-24-12 05:18 PM - Post#2194840    

Grumpyvette - are you throwing things in your threads just to see if I am reading them? because I think I recognize some of those pics in your forum:

http://forum.grumpysperformance.com/viewtopic.php?...

And I want to take a moment to thank you.

YOU, sir, have put forth a tremendous effort to gather info, organize it, and willingly provide it freely to anyone who will take the time to read it.

Knowledge is POWER

The common man seeks knowledge only for themselves and guards that knowledge in order to charge a premium from others for the use of that knowledge.

ONLY a truly wise man shares his knowledge for the betterment of all men.

"Give a man a fish and you feed him for a day. Teach a man to fish and you feed him for a lifetime."

I truly see the big picture here, and I greatly appreciate the effort and the lengths you have gone to in order to help others learn not only what to do, but why to do it that way. And you back that information up with tons of references. I really get the "why" and "what" you are doing...

HOWEVER, much to my own dismay, I just do not have the time to read and fully consume a lifetimes worth of material.

I know it may sound like I'm ungrateful. But that could not be further from the truth. I feel like I am the one who is unworthy of your time and your consideration.

And yet the smartass in me just has to ask... why couldnt he simply say, "those carbs are notorious for floats being outa whack and it makes you idle too rich, check that first, then set your initial timing. Run each mixture screws in until it bogs then use the vacuum gauge T'd into to the manifold and SLOWLY adjust the mixture screw out until you get it to max vacuum pressure, then adjust the other side the same way. Remember to keep an eye on your idle rpms and adjust to keep idle around 800. continue fine tuning each side slightly until you reach max vacuum. remember to take you time, and give those slight adjustment time to settle in...." then point out the direct links pertaining to that subject? (not a 100,000 things to know about tuning any carb ever manufactured)

And grumpy, please dont get me wrong, I would give just about anything to be able to hang out with you on a small block build...

I simply just DON'T have the time...

My wife and kids always come first, then the rest of my family, then usually my friends, but almost always lastly, is myself.

So when I do have time to go online for a few minutes and check the forum, help where I can, then ask my own questions and for some advice, maybe also use that online time to socialize a bit with people that have a common passion...

I dont necessarily need or want to hear "IVE posted extensive links with detailed info on those questions" and followed with an encyclopedia of information coughed out like a hairball...

And then there is that little time I actually do get to putter with my truck, trying make the most out of what I've got...

So that some day, if and when the stars are properly aligned, I get that tiny moment, that is left over, just for me..... I can just enjoy my toy.

But hey, I could be completely wrong here, and my views and priorities may be completely askew?
I could be making something out of nothing?
I could just be taking it the wrong way, after all your handle is grumpyvette? Maybe mine should be GrouchyAss?

And what the hell... while I'm ranting, hang this on your dart board...


Words are a lot like toothpaste... Once its out of the tube,
there's no getting it back in...

grumpyvette
Senior Chevytalk Moderator -- Performance Subject Matter Expert --
Posts 16177
grumpyvette
02-24-12 06:01 PM - Post#2194854    

first remember I almost never post anything as a direct response to a single stated problem or question, because I know these posts will be referred to for weeks or even years by people looking for answers to similar issues who do key word searches so NEVER assume Im either taking things personally or responding solely to a single problem, as I try hard to answer questions in a way that makes it easy for anyone reading the response to find related info that should be helpful.most of us learn things when we screw up and I,m no different I make my fair share of mistakes over the years,but I try to document and correct them and help prevent others from making those same mistakes
have you ever thought? "damn Id have done that differently if Id known...." well I sure have so I try to give you options and info to allow you to make the correct choices the first time!
perhaps this might help

http://forum.grumpysperformance.com/viewtopic.php?...
" " IF YOU CAN'T SMOKE THE TIRES FROM A 60 MPH ROLLING START YOUR ENGINE NEEDS MORE WORK !"

technitom
Contributor
Posts 248
technitom
02-24-12 09:54 PM - Post#2194912    

OK, after reading that, things make better sense... its more of a nudge to look in the right direction for what may answer your question, or lead you to another link that gets you there...

and I was under the impression that you was being kinda elusive or possibly sending me on a snipe hunt.(it has been that kind of week)

I was looking for a direct answer to setting engine timing with a vacuum gauge, but spent over an hour watching youtube video and running down links and sub-link to sub-links... I never caught anything that lead me to the answer I was looking for..

Part of that is my impatience, the temps are really dropping here and I wanted to finish this tune-up today so I could get back to the interior work and hopefully wrap things up by spring and enjoy the hotrod season...

I got all the info I needed about the carb... from your site of course.

and if I cant find what I'm looking for here, I head directly for your site...

just a suggestion, I wish you had a more clearly defined index, or if you do post a link, please post a reference or introduction to where that link takes you...

kinda like, for info on edelbrock carbs go here: (link) for demon carbs: (link) qjets: (link)

Sometimes I dont know where that link is going and it can be like an Easter egg hunt. I had 20 windows opened to different links at once, and truth be told, I got lost. I waded thru carb info on brands that didnt apply because there might be a link in there somewhere that will take me where I wanted to go...

I cant see the forest for all the damn trees!

btw anything I post, graphs, pics, links you are welcome to use as you see fit whether it be a good example or a perfect example of what not to do... thats how everyone learns.

BUT the next time I post a pic of a distributor cap and rotor and ask for an opinion.

I would appreciate getting your opinion here, first, before you send me to a link, that leads me to a link, of MY pics, on your site, telling me the my cap is "lightly used distributor cap" and my "rotor shows carbon arcing, which can be caused by placing the spring loaded button above the insulated washer rather than under it with only the spring poking thru (see assembly diagram)" <- the carbon tip was installed properly by the way... and did you notice the carbon buildup on the walls of the cap down towards the lip?

what else causes that? there is supposedly about 3500 mile on this motor... does it look right to you? is the coil over producing? should I be using the solid brass button? are the plug wires not conducting properly causing a buildup of energy leading to arching?

AND IF YOU TRY TO SEND ME TO ANOTHER LINK TO ANSWER THESE SIMPLE QUESTIONS... YOU BETTER TAKE ANOTHER LONG LOOK AT THAT PICTURE OF ME, 'CAUSE I'M GONNA BE COMING FOR YA! YOU OLD GEEZER!

Words are a lot like toothpaste... Once its out of the tube,
there's no getting it back in...

grumpyvette
Senior Chevytalk Moderator -- Performance Subject Matter Expert --
Posts 16177
grumpyvette
02-25-12 06:29 AM - Post#2194941    

,ITS important to understand how and why things work,but To give a quick answer, generally you use a vacuum gauge on a STOCK engine to set timing by hooking it up to plenum vacuum , set the idle to normal idle speed (usually 670rpm-850rpm)and adjust timing to max vacuum reading, this DOESN'T,T ALWAYS result in the best possible timing but it will generally be fairly close on a DEAD STOCK ENGINE

http://www.centuryperformance.com/tuning-with-a-va...

http://forum.grumpysperformance.com/viewtopic.php?...

ARCing like that can be the result of improper instal on the carbon button or failure to use a silicon sealant grease on the rubber insulator washer that holds it in place under the coil in the cap.

" " IF YOU CAN'T SMOKE THE TIRES FROM A 60 MPH ROLLING START YOUR ENGINE NEEDS MORE WORK !"

technitom
Contributor
Posts 248
technitom
02-25-12 08:59 AM - Post#2194993    

OK, thank you!

In my case where I am not 100% certain on all the components in this build, it is highly recommended to use the timing light to initially set timing, plot out the advance curve, and adjust accordingly.

Then go back and use the vacuum gauge and reference those settings in HG for a baseline for my engine, looking for telltale indications of other issues I would otherwise be unaware of...

In the future, I could probably setup and tune this motor with only a vacuum gauge and my reference chart for this motor. However it does take time and experience that I do not have yet with the vacuum gauge.

I see now why you kept steering me back to the timing light.

off to get or make a timing tape...


Words are a lot like toothpaste... Once its out of the tube,
there's no getting it back in...

technitom
Contributor
Posts 248
technitom
02-25-12 12:11 PM - Post#2195046    

I made a pretty accurate timing tape using MS Excel... formatting the row height at 8.75 (excel only lets you change in increments of .25, even though you can type in a height of 8.73, it defaults back to 8.75) makes my timing tape come out 1 degree too big over 60 degrees of total timing....

In other words my 30 degree mark on the tape is actually 30.5 degrees. when total advanced timing is somewhere between 32 and 36 degrees for most small blocks, I dont think half of a degree is going to make that much of a difference in the grand scheme of things... if anyone wants this file lemme know...

formula used: 6.75"(DIA)converts to 171.45mm X 3.14159265358979(PI)=538.62606 divided by 360(degrees)=1.496mm per degree of timing.

the tape starts at 12 degrees ATDC to 60 degrees BTDC with markings every degree, every 2 degrees, and every 10 degrees. labeled in 10 degree increments starting 10 ATDC to 40 BTDC...

I printed out and hand measured half a dozen or so versions until I could get to as accurate as MS excel would let me...

Words are a lot like toothpaste... Once its out of the tube,
there's no getting it back in...

busterrm
Frequent Contributor
Posts 1073
busterrm
02-26-12 07:16 PM - Post#2195644    

When you apply it to the balancer, take a small strip of emory cloth and have someone spin the motor. Hold the cloth to the balancer and smooth it to bare shiney metal. Apply a thin coat of contact cement to balancer and back of tape. Line it up on zero and once its on shoot a coat of clearcoat on it. Let it set for awhile and set up. I did it this way and I think the tape will be there forever. Oh yeah, don't know if its a typo or not. But set the timing tape with the larger number to the right of pointer, when the marks are on the balancer advance it to the right of the pointer.
==== BOB ====
If I can't smoke the tires I want more!

1976 Chevy Nova
2007 Chevy 1500 1/2 ton
2008 Harley Davidson XL1200 Sportster

busterrm
Frequent Contributor
Posts 1073
busterrm
02-26-12 07:44 PM - Post#2195659    

Before you put the tape on measure your balancer circumference to make sure your accurate. I just measured mine and it not excactly 6.75, its a 1/16 larger. So for mine it would convert from 6.8125 to 173.0375 mm X pi = 543.61332. Just saying to make sure measure the balancer diameter.
==== BOB ====
If I can't smoke the tires I want more!

1976 Chevy Nova
2007 Chevy 1500 1/2 ton
2008 Harley Davidson XL1200 Sportster

mpaul
Senior Member
Posts 805
mpaul
02-28-12 07:03 PM - Post#2196459    

http://www.4secondsflat.com/plug_chart.html this may help http://www.centuryperformance.com/tech-zone-spg-25... http://www.triumphspitfire.nl/plugs.html
I CARRY A GUN, CAUSE A COP IS TOO HEAVY. http://louisianaclassictr uckclub.freeforums.org/ http://www.picturetrail.com/mpaul1

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